The new mystery box

[womble]

The intention was to show, that the portrait could be the more natural place to show it while freeing up LOTS of space.

The problem with colour vision deficient people could easily be solved like it is solved now: that the colored frame could also be built up from segments from the bottom to the top, where the maximum suppression results in a closed frame.

Good idea.

Instead of your pseudo arguments it would be more honest to say: i don't LIKE new ideas and ignorance is a bliss.

Instead of assuming you know anything about my motivations you could just stick to suggesting improvements in an iterative manner.

Or you could recognise that I'm everso keen on changes in the UI, but equally keen that they not exclude 10% of the playerbase in their utility.

[Mord]

LOL hey, least he didn't call you a fanboy. He's getting better.

Mord.

[Steiner14]

LOL hey, least he didn't call you a fanboy. He's getting better.

One day you will get over it.

[Battlefront.com]

Color alone can not be used to portray information. Too many people (it's far more than 10%, BTW) have some degree of difficulty determining colors. Plus, it limits how many different "states" we can show because the more colors used the less people can tell them apart. Therefore we have always avoided using color as an indicator of anything without it also having a unique shape. It's good UI design practices and we aren't going to change that.

It is also a bad idea to present the same information in more than one way at one time. Having two different ways to get information at different times is OK if both are fairly obvious and different because of context. For example, we show a colored line between waypoints to help players identify what Command they are using. It's also shown as a button, which is also color coded. One method reinforces the other. If you are unfortunate enough to be true color blind the same information is available by looking at the button text and/or relative position.

Agreed that the portrait conveys no big deal information. However, it gives some sense of humanity to the UI and that has been repeatedly shown as important to gamers in general. Obviously not the ones who tend more towards spreadsheet UIs.

As for presenting too much information... I would say we present a little too much at once, so we do have some ideas on how to make some of the information optional. Remember, every person has their own tolerance for information overload and for most gamers CM is total overload already. As in they won't touch it because of the amount of information. Obviously these are people unused to detailed games so most of them wouldn't like CM no matter what. However, the more we shove information into the UI the more people we keep out of wargaming. That's bad for us all.

Steve

[sburke]

Agreed that the portrait conveys no big deal information. However, it gives some sense of humanity to the UI and that has been repeatedly shown as important to gamers in general. Obviously not the ones who tend more towards spreadsheet UIs.

Steve

Some of us find the portrait one of the most immersive items, with Mord/DCs mod even more so. Should we start a petiton drive for keeping BF hands off our portraits? (kind of premised on keeping your gov't hands off my medicare).

[A Canadian Cat]

Some of us find the portrait one of the most immersive items, with Mord/DCs mod even more so. Should we start a petiton drive for keeping BF hands off our portraits? (kind of premised on keeping your gov't hands off my medicare).

I think that Steve is on your side on this one - I mean about the portraits being important.

I'm not touching anything to do with US medical care with anything shorter than a 39 1/2 foot pole? :eek:

[MikeyD]

I had never heard the 'information overload' theory about driving players away. Interesting. One person's 'must-have' feature then becomes 'the straw that broke the camel's back' for another. There is so much in this game that could be displayed graphically that it could easily overwhelm. Like the game literally keeps track of the weight of each individual soldier. Something the game needs to know but we don't.

[sburke]

I think that Steve is on your side on this one - I mean about the portraits being important.

I'm not touching anything to do with US medical care with anything shorter than a 39 1/2 foot pole? :eek:

LOL yeah I know, that was kind of the joke. The folks making the statement seem unaware medicare is gov't medical. Just one more thing for you Canadians to chuckle about us dumb a** Mericans. Well don't get too giggly- you guys only had 2 teams in the Stanley cup and both got eliminated first round (we'll conveniently ignore how many players in US NHL teams are Canadian - thank you very much)

[poesel]

Back to colours: why is it then that 'target light' and 'quick' use the same colours? That had me confused more than once.

[Steiner14]

Color alone can not be used to portray information. Too many people (it's far more than 10%, BTW) have some degree of difficulty determining colors. Plus, it limits how many different "states" we can show because the more colors used the less people can tell them apart. Therefore we have always avoided using color as an indicator of anything without it also having a unique shape.

Understood.

I only have painting capabilities of a beginner, but it should be sufficient to show the idea:

gif maker

I was very surprised that a kind of stranglehood impression is created by the growing frame around the throat and how the color becoming red close to the cheeks is suggesting heat in the face. Quite adequate.

[womble]

Understood.

I only have painting capabilities of a beginner, but it should be sufficient to show the idea:

gif maker

I was very surprised that a kind of stranglehood impression is created by the growing frame around the throat and how the color becoming red close to the cheeks is suggesting heat in the face. Quite adequate.

The problem with that implementation is that once it gets "serious" (red) it gets harder to see. So people with R/G deficiency just won't notice it in a hurry, and noticing things in a hurry is what good UI design is all about. For me, if it just stayed yellow, that'd be fine, but the yellow/blue deficient folks would suffer then.

[Mord]

One day you will get over it.

And one day you will be less of an ass...maybe.

Mord.

[Battlefront.com]

Easy folks. No need for it on either side.

Steve

[sburke]

The portrait is wasted space big time. It conveys probably the least information per pixel.

Unquestionably true, however the potential to be modded to give a more immersive feel to a scenario or campaign is unique and therefore it becomes the most immersive per pixel for those of us that like that sort of thing. I loved seeing that emblem for the 352nd ID while playing Hamel Vallee. The portraits have become one of my favorite mods. Granted a lot of people I am sure could care less, but we could say that about every item, option, or text in the UI to some degree or another.

This message brought to you by Keep the Portrait - a non profit organization dedicated to keeping the portrait section of the CMx2 UI.

Keep the Portrait is in no way affililiated to BFC or any of it's off shore holding companies

Steve - not of Battlefront

[Battlefront.com]

I had never heard the 'information overload' theory about driving players away. Interesting. One person's 'must-have' feature then becomes 'the straw that broke the camel's back' for another. There is so much in this game that could be displayed graphically that it could easily overwhelm. Like the game literally keeps track of the weight of each individual soldier. Something the game needs to know but we don't.

Yet I'm sure you've seen people say that they find games too complicated or too hard to use. There's probably been more than a few wargames you've never warmed up to for some reason that maybe you couldn't quite put your finger on. Chances are too much information, or information presented with either too much text or too many abstract symbols, was part of the equation.

Obviously things can go the other way. A complex game that lacks obvious controls for common functions doesn't help a game win hearts and minds. Combat Mission is absolutely a complex game. While it certainly has its UI shortcomings, as all games do (no game is universally praised for its UI), I think it strikes a pretty good balance at the moment. Since no product is ever perfect, we'll keep chipping away at user UI requests along with other types of suggestions.

Steve

[Battlefront.com]

Heh... don't worry, the portraits aren't going to be dropped. Though I do hope we can allow more flexibility in how they are associated with units. It's an area ripe for Modding, but right now it's sorta limiting.

Steve

[Vinnart]

Steiner, I have to be honest in that I believe you are going way to radical than what is necessary. The player already sees that a unit is panicked with highlighted border that appears around the word panic for example, and the faded unit icon. I have never not known a unit is in panic unless it was out of camera view, or not selected. (The ROSTER concept here: http://www.battlefront.com/community/showthread.php?t=104982 addresses that. Latest refinements are at the end of the thread) I also, think the suppression meter is more cut and dry in conveying LEVELS of suppression at a glance. I can draw different portraits with different levels of frightened expression, and it would not be as clear as the suppression meter. I Hear where you are coming from, but really do not see it necessary. I am a straight shooter when I critique, but It is always good to brainstorm though as you are doing. I just don’t see the need to get rid of the suppression meter in its effectiveness.

I agree with Steve that color with unique shape is best for rapid association. To prove these points look at traffic signs, and signals. The last thing one notices on a stop sign is the word “stop”. Also, the guys running around flight decks of aircraft carriers are not wearing all those different colored shirts just to be stylish. As far as the use of color for rapid association it is effective for the MAJORITY, so sacrificing color for the better of the MINORITY is not practical for mass appeal to a larger audience, which equals larger sales. Another reason color should not be sacrificed if it is the best way to convey information is because any bitmap color can be changed to whatever color a person wants through modding. In this way the best design is not sacrificed while the color blind can have their shades of blue. Most of the game could be done in entirely blue monochromatic scheme to make it most appealing to the color blind, but then 90% of the sales would be lost. I certainly would not buy it that way. If I made my posters monochromatic to appeal most to the color blind I am guessing I would have sold 50 units instead of the quarter million I have because I appeal to the MAJORITY first. My advice to the color blind is YOU adapt to the MAJORITY by learning photoshop to change thing to the minorities needs. In this way minority color blind grog, and majority color loving grogs can all live together in harmony, and get what they want while not impeding on the other guys wants color wise . Perhaps womble should learn photoshop to help himself, and the rest of the color blind to stop complaining about things that can be easily changed to ADAPT to that minorities needs. I noticed they reduced the colors on the command buttons, but you do not hear me complaining because it is the first thing I will change, as I prefer the CMBN colors. If I can learn photoshop, I am sure he can as bright as he is. Womble become the savior of the color blind!

As far as the information given in the UI I think it is fine, and definitely not a game breaker, however a few things here, and there will reduce micro management. As I said I think the UI is good as is, but just needs FOUR more things as far as I see for the entire panel. One we already covered in the desire of having one more line of text incorporated showing floor/passenger/open status. I’ll put some illustrations together to show. Steve, you are going to like it because it really is not much radical changing I will show, but will make all the difference. Time to start painting.

[Steiner14]

Steiner, I have to be honest in that I believe you are going way to radical than what is necessary.

Remember, we had the discussion about showing additional infos in the UI and then the argument came, it would become too clobbered.

With this idea the vast space the supression meter occupies could be freed (if needed) and even the humanizing effect the portraits create can be increased. Radical improvements usually can't be avoided to be radical.

[JonS]

I think the UI is good as is, but just needs FOUR more things as far as I see

Trust me, there probably isn't a single UI request you guys have made that I am not aware of The difficulty is it is easy to justify including this or that bit of information, it's much harder to manage all those requests so they don't crush each other or make the UI seem like a spreadsheet. "But my one suggestion doesn't do that" assumes that we don't have other suggestions or requirements to take into consideration. Not to mention limited development time.

[Offshoot]

Heh, to satisfy both sides and make the portraits more useful, rather than having flashing borders, how about switching the portraits themselves out to reflect an increasingly more panicked soldier? Of course I'm joking, but then it would make for some interesting modding possibilities.

[c3k]

Why hasn't anyone brought up the portrait of Major Blaskovitch (?) from the Doom series? C'mon, a progressively bloodier visage as damage (or injuries or morale) takes effect would be fun to watch.

[Mord]

Heh... don't worry, the portraits aren't going to be dropped. Though I do hope we can allow more flexibility in how they are associated with units. It's an area ripe for Modding, but right now it's sorta limiting.

Steve

I ran into some limitations that were a bit frustrating when messing with the portraits...but off hand it would be nice to have a portrait for engineers and pioneers to set them apart from infantry and maybe someway to distinguish Tank Destroyers, Independent Tank Battalions, Stug and Heavy Panzer Brigades from normal armor portraits.

The only other thing I could think of that would be really flexible would be to have slots for ranks on the portraits. It could be easy as Sgt and below have one portrait and Officers have one, up to something like "portrait usa infantry pvt", "portrait usa infantry sgt", "portrait usa infantry Lt" Etc. Or "portrait usa infantry pvt", "portrait usa infantry pvt 2", "portrait usa infantry pvt 3". Where you could have more than one face for any type of unit. Though, I think multiple portraits would work best with officers more than enlisted guys or Non Coms, such as LT and above.

Or you could go another route and have portrait slots by the type of unit. Machine Gun, mortar squad, tank hunter etc.

Mord.

[Battlefront.com]

It's kinda interesting to see two people arguing so passionately about something that we're not going to implement.

Guys, this is not a design by committee type game. As I said several pages ago, there is a redesign that takes into consideration lots of user requests that go way beyond pushing pixels around here and there.

The best way to help us design better games is to tell us what information you want to see and not try to design the game yourselves. It's not a good use of time or energy. I say that because in the last 12 years I can't count how many feature requests from you guys that we've implemented. However, I can probably count on one hand how many micro-managed suggestions we've implemented. Though I would have to start by remembering at least one. None come to mind, though I'm sure there are some.

Give us feedback, we give you solutions. Best recipe in the book.

Steve

[Vinnart]

FIRST:

The first thing missing as stated already is the floor/passenger/open status here shown under the portrait. HYPOTHETICLY speaking given the available space in the LATEST GUI I don’t see anywhere else this could go. I stress latest in CMFI as under the portrait in the current CMBN it doesn’t fit hence I ended up presenting the version with Clint Eastwood. In CMBN the line of type that contain experience and morale is lower, and more flush with the bottom of the portrait, which cramped the type. Now it is moved up with less space between in the two line that have name fitness, and the bottom line experience/morale. IF HYPOTHETICLY given the current given space where else would be better without much shifting? (ps. I am using N.Dudes screen shot, hence the red arrow to point out the mustache)

SECOND:

In CMx1 there was a color bar that went yellow/ red along with the integer change. This was the best. In CMSF the integer was lost, and went straight color. People wanted more exact so integers were added, and the color was removed. Shown are two color ammo level warning markers added yellow= low, red = out. Note there is no green as it is not needed. Here less is more. As the player I don’t want to have to micro manage, and constantly have to keep reading the integers. I just want to glance over at the ammo, and if I see a warning marker then I need to read the integers. You will also note that if an ammo is out it still remains with a red marker to alert the player that a weapon currently being held is out of ammo. Currently it disappears. and the player finds himself with submachine guns on the attack with no ammo because he did not notice it. Just a simple warning marker makes all the difference here in micro management time, and situational awareness. To incorporate I narrowed the suppression meter slightly, and C2 icons just a little bit. These markers can be modded to blues for the color blind, and reduce micro management time greatly.

[Vinnart]

THIRD:

To improve situational awareness of C2 status you will notice a red circle added. Currently we only get alive, or dead info here with green circle, or red X. What would improve this is: Green circle = Alive and in C2, Red circle = Alive and out of C2, and Dark red X = dead, and obviously no longer in C2. This is much more useful in seeing C2. Dead is dead, but alive has more different status. Just adding this improves C2 awareness easily without having to resize anything to fit in.