AAR-AXIS - Clearing the Niscemi Highway

[Childress]

http://www.firearmstalk.com/forums/f22/75mm-pack-howitzer-help-31075/

Fascinating. The poor schlub digs up an ancient howitzer in an Arkansas river bed and most of the comments consist of warnings over running afoul of federal gun control laws. One senses that our ancestors would have found this exchange most curious, if not incomprehensible.

[Bil Hardenberger]

The Seventeenth Minute

ND's killer demo team seems to escape with no casualties under my chasing MG fire. This team seems charmed some how.

On my left the Semovente starts to put some fire into the villa. I don't really like it's exposed position on the road so I will pull him back behind the corner and take up a more covered position.

The first of ND's reinforcements shows itself coming around the corner of the Villa... this vehicle sports the same gun that ND had in his forward positions.. not sure what kind of ammo it has though so I need to be wary.. I will position my Pz-III so it can oversee this area.

[Vanir Ausf B]

ND's killer demo team seems to escape with no casualties under my chasing MG fire. This team seems charmed some how.

Perhaps machine guns are under-modeled.

[Bil Hardenberger]

The Eighteenth Minute

So I expected this... the immobile R35 on the Orchards objective that had gun damage as well was knocked out by ND's T-30.. I had dismounted this tank this turn so I could get the crew off of the objective, just in time it seems.

My OP spots this MMG team running towards the Villa...

A second halftrack comes around the other side of the villa, obviously hunting my Semovente as it immediately starts to target my tank, though no shots were exchanged this turn. the red circle marks the location of my Semovente.. I am glad I listened to my intuition last turn when I pulled my tank off the exposed road..

The blue circle marks the location of ND's T-30... sadly my tank has yet to gain LOS to it, though I have good LOS to the exact spot it is sitting on. Could the Italian tanks be that blind when buttoned? Well, we'll have to see if I can get a visual on it in the next turn or so.. hope the trees and hill are enough protection in the meantime.. but really at this range the accuracy of that 75 in the T-30 cannot be too great.

[Michael Emrys]

...but really at this range the accuracy of that 75 in the T-30 cannot be too great.

Famous last words?

Michael

[MikeyD]

I get these urges to jump in but I suspect offering advice would be rather like yelling at the movie screen while watching an old film "Don't go in that room! Turn around! Look under the desk!" I'm sure Humphrey Bogart appreciates the advice I'm giving him.

[Bil Hardenberger]

The Nineteenth Minute

ND's T30 takes 3 shots at my Semovente this turn, one falls short the other two are long... I still have no LOS to this vehicle and I have several vehicles that should be able to see either this one or the other... ND is winning the LOS battle that's for sure. There is little I can do if my units cannot get LOS onto ND's vehicles...

Another R35 bites the dust, this from the other T30. I am really getting dismayed at the lack of LOS I am getting from these Italian vehicles. Now I have lost 4 out of 5 R35s and the Semovente is is danger. Checking LOS from these vehicles I have blue targeting lines from each of them onto the two T30 locations, but none can see either. Frustrating.

As my spotting rounds fall on the Hill objective I notice ND is pulling his troops out of that position. Smart. After my barrage is spent he can simply re-occupy them and then I will have spent my artillery for little gain.

My OP now notices a UI armor sitting on the hill along the back edge of the map If this is a Sherman that will effectively eliminate any idea I might have had at moving units down this flank. At least it's sitting there out of the fight for now and not actively engaging me on the Orchards or at the Hill/Villa.

NEXT: A Decision Point

[Baneman]

... ND is winning the LOS battle that's for sure. There is little I can do if my units cannot get LOS onto ND's vehicles...

Checking LOS from these vehicles I have blue targeting lines from each of them onto the two T30 locations, but none can see either. Frustrating...

This is the single most gamebreaking "bug" (for me) at the moment. The best tactics in the world can be totally negated if you can't see the enemy ( particularly vehicles )

I recently had an enemy tank making hay against my infantry. The only AT asset I had was a schreck unit about 180m away. Unsupressed. Hadn't even had contact until then.

Nothing between them, no trees, no foliage, no bushes, just clear open ground. Clear blue los lines to the entire area around the tank.

Took them FOUR turns to see it !

So I feel your pain. But your AAR is totally absorbing though, I'm just a bit disappointed to see that the Spotting issues persist.

[akd]

This is the single most gamebreaking "bug" (for me) at the moment. The best tactics in the world can be totally negated if you can't see the enemy ( particularly vehicles )

To be clear, Bil is not suggesting there is something wrong with the game. Buttoned R35s, with their one-man turrets and poor vision devices, should be pretty incompetent.

[Baneman]

To be clear, Bil is not suggesting there is something wrong with the game. Buttoned R35s, with their one-man turrets and poor vision devices, should be pretty incompetent.

Granted, and why I put quotes around the word bug. I just hope spotting in general can be improved.

[MikeyD]

What I wanted to yell at my computer screen was "UNBUTTON YOUR SEMOVENTE!" It seems with that vehicle you've got a choice between safety and situational awareness, not both at the same time. On the plus side the T30 apparently just fired off three precious HEAT rounds to no effect. Once he gets down to HE he only becomes an annoyance, but he probably still has 4 or 5 anti-tank rounds left in him.

[Battlefront.com]

Correct... Bil is misusing some terms here LOS = Line of Sight. That means a line between two points and what is, or isn't, degrading it's clarity along the way. Terrain and lighting conditions are the only things which can interfere with LOS. LOS is always 100% two ways. Which means a unit in Spot A that can draw LOS to a unit in Spot B also has a LOS line going from Unit B to Unit A. 100% of the time, all the time. There hasn't been a bug reported in this function since since about 2007.

Spotting, on the other hand, is situationally dependent and has nothing to do with LOS other than LOS is a requirement. The blue lines he talked about are LOS and he does have it from his R35s to the T30s. But unless he's spotted the T30s the LOS does no good. So what he is in fact complaining about is how horrid the little R35s are at spotting anything when buttoned up, not that he can't get LOS (because he does, in fact, have LOS).

There's a big difference between a tiny vehicle with basically 1-2 men spotting in cramped conditions compared to an open topped vehicle with 3-4 men spotting without obstructions. That's entirely realistic. The game quite nicely portrays this. Bil's frustration is, therefore, coming from the fact that he's got inferior vehicles under his command and they are performing... well... not great.

Granted, and why I put quotes around the word bug. I just hope spotting in general can be improved.

The restrictions on spotting aren't a bug or a "bug" (quotes doesn't change the meaning of a word). Restrictions based on number of eyes, visual restrictions, limited scanning arcs, optics, etc. are all a part of making any one particular vehicle more-or-less realistically matched against another. Having all vehicles get automatic spotting just because they have LOS would put Combat Mission in the same ballpark as any number of RTS games out there. No thanks

In fact, we are overly generous with spotting as it is. Yes folks, as restrictive as our spotting modeling is, we are sure that in real life some situations would be much worse than what we're portraying.

In short, there's no bug to fix. The game is reasonably portraying real life and doing anything to neuter that would be a huge detriment to the game. Which is why we're not going to purposefully dumb it down.

Steve

[Michael Emrys]

In fact, we are overly generous with spotting as it is.

Given the number and vociferousness of complaints I've seen about instantaneous spotting from buttoned tanks, I'd guess that there are a host of people who would agree with you. But yeah, it must be hard to find a middle ground that will work in most situations most of the time.

Michael

[Vark]

Shame AFV commanders cannot dismount to scout ahead, they could then remount and then be given a better chance to locate the source of fire. That is unless the target moved from it's initial position as the commander returned. This tactic has been mentioned in many firsthand accounts, and is often credited with keeping the author and his crew alive.

[sburke]

Actually you can dismount the crew if you want. I wouldn't cause mine would end up strolling into a minefield. It isn't quite like dismounting just the TC, but if you are looking to have them hop out and take a quick discreet peek with hopefully a chance to not be observed it is an option.

[Bil Hardenberger]

What I wanted to yell at my computer screen was "UNBUTTON YOUR SEMOVENTE!" It seems with that vehicle you've got a choice between safety and situational awareness, not both at the same time. On the plus side the T30 apparently just fired off three precious HEAT rounds to no effect. Once he gets down to HE he only becomes an annoyance, but he probably still has 4 or 5 anti-tank rounds left in him.

Actually I did that Mikey.. they quickly closed the lid again when ND's T30 opened fire though It still only has a 3 man crew, so spotting is still not great.

Yes these Italian vehicles really need some help when coming to grips with the better more modern American equipment.. and Steve is right, the open topped vehicle should spot better than my Semovente. Doesn't help my frustration level though

In my last AAR with The Capt (see the link in my sig) I consistently got the drop on him by unbuttoning, having better positioning, etc. Exactly like what is happening to me here. I am loath to unbutton the R35s because the TC is then very vulnerable.. but they can't spot for sh*t otherwise..

Sorry if it's been misunderstood, but its my frustration with the new equipment that I have been complaining about, not the game.

Bil

[Battlefront.com]

Heh!

One of the fun things about the R35 is you use them and think "ah, I see why nobody designed tanks like this after 1940" In other wargames you usually only get a sense of guns and armor, not the other stuff. The R35 is nimble, granted, but the shortcomings are major.

And for you history buffs, "ah, I see why Germany gifted these to their allies instead of keeping them".

Steve

[MikeyD]

And R35 is not the worst offender in that regard, they were an advancement over the obsolescent L5s (Fiat 3000s). Let us also recall T30 and M3 GMC half tracks didn't exactly cover themselves in glory either. I expect to see a German MG34 LMG on the opposing hill make swiss cheese of that halftrack's side armor at some point.

[Steiner14]

Actually you can dismount the crew if you want. I wouldn't cause mine would end up strolling into a minefield. It isn't quite like dismounting just the TC, but if you are looking to have them hop out and take a quick discreet peek with hopefully a chance to not be observed it is an option.

But does the crew remember where and what it spotted?

[Rake]

But does the crew remember where and what it spotted?

This was my question, too, when I read the earlier post. I tend to think not, but I could be wrong. Guess we'd need to hear from BF to know if there's any type of spotting benefit given to a forward scouting crew once it returns to its vehicle.

I also want to applaud BilH and ND for the AAR. I've never been a huge fan of the southern front (mainly because I haven't read as much about it and haven't gamed it very often), but this AAR is getting me primed for CMFI. Looking forward to seeing how the PzIII's play out... my favorite little tank!

[sburke]

But does the crew remember where and what it spotted?

Not sure I get the question. I assumed (apparently incorrectly ) that this was for the player's sake. The AI has apparently some "memory" for continuing to shoot at a location once it no longer spots a unit it had been firing upon, but memory of where it spotted a target once it goes back to the vehicle and remounts? Come on guys the AI is not Data from Star Trek It is a simple statement of continuing firing upon x for y amount of time after losing sight of x (with perhaps a caveat of shoot something else if you see it). It doesn't actually remember anything.

Besides, in the amount of time it took to remount, the situation may have totally changed. - They saw a PSW 222 and ran back to their tank (giggling uncontrollably about the easy kill they were gonna have) and while they were running a King Tiger pulled up...oops.

[Battlefront.com]

Units do retain memory of targets, so that specific line of logic doesn't apply to a dismounted crew because it isn't targeting. However, I'm pretty sure that any unit has a much higher chance of respotting something it previously was aware of for a short period of time.

If a tank crew dismounts, walks a ways, sees an enemy, and then moves back to it's tank then the chances of it remembering where the enemy is has a lot to do with continuing LOS and what the enemy is doing.

Steve

[Bil Hardenberger]

The Twentieth Minute

Okay let's get it over with... the Semovente bites the dust this turn. Even with the thing unbuttoned it never could spot the T30.. I had ordered it to target briefly onto the spot the T30 is sitting.. but with it slightly behind the rise my two rounds are short.. the T30 fires 3, the third striking home.

I'm not sure how many HEAT rounds that thing carries but that cannot have helped it's supply.

On the other side of the map, the UI armor that was spotted last turn has become clear.. it is a Sherman.

So now the situation is clear. I am also at a crossroads... I need to sit down and take a hard look at my force and see if I can come up with a way to solve the performance gap between ND's forces and mine.

This battle is not over yet. In a few more turns I will get another helping of reinforcements, and then hopefully I can become the hunter again in this battle.

My next post will be analytic in nature as I explore the present situation, the opposing forces and equipment, and possible courses of action.

[MikeyD]

Dude, I felt for you on that Semovente thing.

[John Kettler]

Bil,

It looks as though the Semovente is firing, rather than being fired up! Pity, as I have dug the Semovente ever since I saw my first pic of a cool looking sandbagged specimen in North Africa. Am rather surprised the Semovente wouldn't spot the T30 first, given the thing looks like a public monument. Nor do I think that, given the high enclosed gun shield, the T30 would have any particular spotting advantage over the Semovente--if the T30 is aimed directly at the Semovente.

BFC,

Dismounted recon by the TC and others was common in both the ETO and the Eastern Front. See, for example, Tanks For The Memories and Loza's Defending The Soviet Motherland, to name but two. Cav unit jeeps used to carry 60 mm mortar teams and MG teams as dismounts to support probes and help recon units break contact, too.

Regards,

John Kettler