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Upgrades Q&A


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All of this are complete products. You are offering fifteen minutes of a movie...

Poppycock. They're offering the Director's Cut of the movie. Not that the comparison is valid for anything more than the absolute money-cost.

Money is not the problem. Problem is a constant request for upgrades.

Why is that a problem? Would you rather they just didn't produce anything until it's "perfect"? Who's definition of "perfect"?

If continuous release of free patches is an annoying habit...

Really? Who's annoyed that something that was broken gets fixed? Who in their right mind, I should say.

...paid patching is a deception.

The only deception here is yours. You're either decieving yourself or attempting to deceive others. BFC are entirely clear and up-front about their model. And one of the things that's clear is that patches (i.e. modifications to existing gameplay elements to make them work properly) are going to be free.

Upgrades, modules, packs...create the euphemisms you prefer.

So you want extra content to be generated for free? You do realise that the only games that do this as a matter of course are run on a subscription basis? Or are you just trolling? They're not euphemisms, they're definitions. You pay for new stuff, they fix borked stuff for free.

A lot of your audience is (still) not fanatical. Outside of these forums people react diferently to your business desitions:

http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2012/07/06/the-sicilian-defence-battlefront-talk-plans-prices-pixies/#comments

The only one there that makes a valid point is Tim Stone. If you were expecting to be able to play CMBN + CW + MG + odds-and-sods without having to pay for anything other than those four products, you will have been disappointed. If you instead treat it like you're getting a free engine upgrade for the price of Market Garden (which they could have pitched it as, and without the separate product we'd never have known any different), then it doesn't seem at all exploitative. It's an unexpected bonus for those of us who weren't expecting things like Covered Armour Arc until CM:Bulge.

Since the standalone upgrade will be $10, how much would you guess MG+upgrade will be compared to MG and upgrade separate, considering they've said the bundle will save a few spondulics? $5 difference maybe.

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Steve, just be glad you aren't developing a flight simulator. The type of rhetoric and whining that goes on at some flight sim forums makes the forums here look like a monastery by comparison. :D I'm close friends with the publisher of Rise of Flight, and some days he tells me it drives him crazy some things people post on the forums.

Too true. And the Rise of Flight forums aren't a "patch" (ha ha) on what gets said over on the IL2 Cliffs of Dover forums. Sure it was/is buggy, but just missing a forum update on a patch kicks off a vitriol frenzy :eek:

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All of this are complete products. You are offering fifteen minutes of a movie, a dish for the lunch or sugar for the coffee.

Money is not the problem. Problem is a constant request for upgrades. If continuous release of free patches is an annoying habit, paid patching is a deception. Upgrades, modules, packs...create the euphemisms you prefer.

A lot of your audience is (still) not fanatical. Outside of these forums people react diferently to your business desitions:

http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2012/07/06/the-sicilian-defence-battlefront-talk-plans-prices-pixies/#comments

Those people should really consider how it works with other game developers/publishers before criticizing BFC's new release model... For the vast majority of commercial games, version 2.0 would NOT be a free update! It would either be part of an extension/DLC/whatever (so you'd have to pay for both new content and new functionality together, instead of paying for them separately - but you'd still have to pay for it) or a whole new game (and you'd have to pay full price, not update price). Also keep in mind that most of the time, games aren't seriously supported for more than a year or two - and after that time, they release a whole new game. Some developer go above and beyond the minimum and keep supporting their games for several years - but even then, they rarely release more than bug fixes and minor updates.

The exception is for some free-to-play commercial games: for those games, you wouldn't have to pay for the update, because the game engine is always distributed for free anyway... But those games generally come with very limited content and you have to pays for various DLCs to actually go very far with them, so it's a different business model. An example would be Rise Of Flight, which is free to download, but the free version only comes with two flyable planes - and additional planes can be quite expensive.

BFC has chosen an intermediate solution that seems to be quite rare in the gaming world, but seems quite reasonable considering the specificity of the CM series:

- The traditional business model, used by most game developers, wouldn't work because a new CMx2 game doesn't replace the previous one. CMFI won't replace CMBN the way, say, Call Of Duty X+1 will replace Call Of Duty X, because not everyone will want to stop playing in the Normandy theater to play only in the Italian theater (not to mention that BFC wants to keep releasing modules for CMBN). Keep in mind, that in a traditional business model, CMBN would no longer receive any support at all once CMFI is out, except maybe a few minor bug-fixes...

- The free-to-play model is something that could probably be tried with CMx2, but it would be quite different from the CMx2 games as they have been released so far (since the base games include a lot of content, and you can't cherry-pick which part of a module you want to buy), so I just don't see why BFC would try something like that without a really good reason.

So it looks like they will go with the same model used by most of the software industry outside of gaming. Paid major updates, free minor updates (and, when applicable, additional content paid separately) are what Microsoft, Adobe et al. do, and there's no reason not to try to do the same with games, if your games happen to look like they would fit that development model.

edit: About the price comparison with a movie: a full-price game on release day is much more expensive than a movie theater ticket (on the order of $60 vs. $10), so saying "it's like 15 minutes of a movie, it should be cheaper than a full movie!" doesn't make any sense.

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All of this are complete products. You are offering fifteen minutes of a movie, a dish for the lunch or sugar for the coffee.

Hmmm Lord of the Rings.... I waited years for the final episode (well worth waiting for, but I had to pay for the two additional episodes even though it was one story?! You believe that?) What if you don't like the ending, or the sandwich didn't have pickles, or your coffee was a little bitter. Fries? Extra content you'll need to pay for that. your right this was a bad analogy, CM is better than these

Money is not the problem. Problem is a constant request for upgrades. If continuous release of free patches is an annoying habit, paid patching is a deception. Upgrades, modules, packs...create the euphemisms you prefer.

You have an interesting perspective on time. Maybe once a year is constant? You must really be challenged about eating breakfast EVERYDAY.

A lot of your audience is (still) not fanatical. Outside of these forums people react diferently to your business desitions:

http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2012/07/06/the-sicilian-defence-battlefront-talk-plans-prices-pixies/#comments

A Lot? Hmm you must still be learning to count. You see when counting, once you use up all your fingers, what do you do? No not use your toes silly. You see in our numbering system we eventually need to do something once we reach ten. We then add a column which we refer to as the "tens" column. See that now you begin to understand there are some truly big numbers out there, like 12. There are more columns, but baby steps you know. Fortunately to count the truly negative posts here your fingers would suffice. That is not a "lot" son.

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A lot of your audience is (still) not fanatical. Outside of these forums people react diferently to your business desitions:

http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2012/07/06/the-sicilian-defence-battlefront-talk-plans-prices-pixies/#comments

is this the best evidence you can come up with? It's a comments section on a gaming website. A comments section on a gaming website without a bunch of negative nancies complaining and/or denigrating is an EMPTY comments section. And "a bunch" is quite the exaggeration for this entry, considering there's about three of them. When can we expect the protest march?

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My experience is, that those people who expect from others to deliver them everything for free, are the ones who are not even moving a finger if not being paid for!

Ironically probably the better business model for BFC would be NOT to offer an upgrade for the old title!

Because every alternative to the new title can cannabalize the selling numbers of the new one. If you want to play the new features, you must buy the new title - and not pay 10$!

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My experience is, that those people who expect from others to deliver them everything for free, are the ones who are not even moving a finger if not being paid for!

Ironically probably the better business model for BFC would be NOT to offer an upgrade for the old title!

Because every alternative to the new title can cannabalize the selling numbers of the new one. If you want to play the new features, you must buy the new title - and not pay 10$!

+1 On this point .... Had BF done what the other developers do they would probably make more money by just refusing to offer an sort of an upgrade and forcing everyone to pay full boat for the new version ... The way it is now, there is no added incentive for someone to buy CMFI (unless you just like that theater).

Now, you can just pay $10 to upgrade CMBN and keep playing it with all the latest bells and whistles .... What a sweet deal, for me ;) ... Thanks BF !!!

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All of this are complete products. You are offering fifteen minutes of a movie, a dish for the lunch or sugar for the coffee.

How so? When I go to a movie I have 2 a two hour experience. No matter how much more I want to watch, or am willing to pay, it's over in 2 hours. Last time I checked Combat Mission doesn't have a time limit on it.

And others have said, when you go and watch a movie in the theater, does that also entitle you to a free DVD when it comes out? How about the director's cut? Free, or should you pay more for it?

As for the coffee experience, I am pretty sure that when you go into a Starbucks and order a coffee it's only good for that one purchase. If you go back the next day and say "I want to drink coffee today based on my purchase yesterday" they would tell you to get bent.

Money is not the problem. Problem is a constant request for upgrades. If continuous release of free patches is an annoying habit, paid patching is a deception. Upgrades, modules, packs...create the euphemisms you prefer.

I can't even follow this! Are you saying players shouldn't request fixes and we shouldn't give them to people for free as a Patch? Are you also saying that customers shouldn't ask for new features, things they have not already paid for? Or are you just saying we shouldn't give them to players at any price?

Really confusing.

A lot of your audience is (still) not fanatical. Outside of these forums people react diferently to your business desitions:

Actually, I see nothing different than I've seen here this week. Heck, I still am seeing people moaning about a $5 patch for games that had been unsupported for something like 5 years. Crazy people are found everywhere on the Internet :D

It's stupid to argue we should produce new game features, which nobody has paid for, for free. That's suicide in the real world, which is why no company does it. Someone ALWAYS pays for it, even if the customer doesn't understand how that works. So any comment that we should be giving this stuff away for free is irrelevant to us. Might as well say we should have to mow your lawn because you are too busy playing our games.

The only semi-legitimate gripe I see is when someone says "I invested in CMBN with the understanding that I would be able to purchase at least 2 Modules for it. Now I find out I also have to pay an extra $5 (bundle price difference) to purchase one of those Modules (Arnhem). I wish they had told me that up front".

Well, I can sympathize with this. But the truth is we didn't have this Upgrade concept until this summer. Almost 1 year after CMBN came out. Actually, I think it was about 14 months after CMBN came out. Anyway, the point is we were faced with either waiting another game cycle to offer this stuff to people or require the Upgrade for Arnhem. For $5 extra (or $10 if bought separately) we saw thought MOST customers would rather have the new features now instead of later. Someone might disagree, but the day we make a decision that 100% of our customers agree with is the day the world comes apart due to a rift in the time-space continuum.

Steve

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Ironically probably the better business model for BFC would be NOT to offer an upgrade for the old title!

Because every alternative to the new title can cannabalize the selling numbers of the new one. If you want to play the new features, you must buy the new title - and not pay 10$!

Correct. What the whiners and complainers seem to forget is most game companies don't offer upgrades because they insist on you buying the next version at full price. ARMA 1 customers don't get ARMA 2 for $10 upgrade, do they?

With CMx1 we did the traditional route and people complained. They said they didn't want their game content to get stale with time. With CMx2 this became an even bigger call since the investment in a Family is significantly more (optionally, of course).

We listened, we did a lot of hard work, and we delivered. And we delivered at a very affordable price. People that don't like this can pretend we have never changed our policy and simply not purchase the Upgrades. Because that's exactly what we used to do and almost every other game company still does.

Steve

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The only semi-legitimate gripe I see is when someone says "I invested in CMBN with the understanding that I would be able to purchase at least 2 Modules for it. Now I find out I also have to pay an extra $5 (bundle price difference) to purchase one of those Modules (Arnhem). I wish they had told me that up front".

Wait a dog gone minute here, you just devalued my purchase by 50% WTF? I paid for a product supposedly worth $10 damn it and I want my $10 value so you damn well better take my other $5!!

Might as well say we should have to mow your lawn because you are too busy playing our games.

Steve

Well now that you mention it, the backyard lawn is getting a bit high and my tanks are busy squishing JonS little stormtrooper wannabees into little piles of goo. God I love the 95 MM Churchill deathstars. You think you could give the mower a little go round?

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my tanks are busy squishing JonS little stormtrooper wannabees into little piles of goo. God I love the 95 MM Churchill deathstars. You think you could give the mower a little go round?

Bring it, crunchie boy. My fausts and schrecks are just waiting to give you a warm welcome. But you better hurry ... time's a tickin'

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Bring it, crunchie boy. My fausts and schrecks are just waiting to give you a warm welcome. But you better hurry ... time's a tickin'

Warmer than you think... Let's just say in the next minute or two you are gonna be singing "you light up my life". :D Yes time is getting short. Hang on to your mauser.

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Well, I can sympathize with this. But the truth is we didn't have this Upgrade concept until this summer. Almost 1 year after CMBN came out. Actually, I think it was about 14 months after CMBN came out. Anyway, the point is we were faced with either waiting another game cycle to offer this stuff to people or require the Upgrade for Arnhem. For $5 extra (or $10 if bought separately) we saw thought MOST customers would rather have the new features now instead of later. Someone might disagree, but the day we make a decision that 100% of our customers agree with is the day the world comes apart due to a rift in the time-space continuum.

Steve

I don't want to derail the thread topic (;p) but a thought crossed my mind (infrequent as they are) leading to a quick question.

Is the patch going to become available before the MG module?

And if so, can we purchase the bundle at that time, if we're planning on purchasing MG?

Essentially, if the patch is going to be available more than a month before the module, can we pre-order the Module/Patch combo and get the patch immediately?

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First, a correction. I meant to say we didn't come up with the concept until LAST summer, some 4 or 5 months after CMBN came out. We weren't sure we could do it for CMBN until THIS summer, some 14 months after the game came out (OK, we actually made the call a few months ago so let's just say 12). Point being that when we sold most of you your CMBNs, we didn't know we were going to have CMBN included in an Upgrade plan because a) we hadn't come up with a specific plan yet and B) we weren't sure if CMBN would be included in the initial round. It was touch and go there for a while due to the major artwork overhaul needs.

And now back to our regular scheduled program :D

Steve

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I don't want to derail the thread topic (;p) but a thought crossed my mind (infrequent as they are) leading to a quick question.

Is the patch going to become available before the MG module?

And if so, can we purchase the bundle at that time, if we're planning on purchasing MG?

Essentially, if the patch is going to be available more than a month before the module, can we pre-order the Module/Patch combo and get the patch immediately?

CMBN v1.11 Patch (free, no charge) will come out fairly soon after Italy ships. CMBN v2.00 Upgrade ($10) will probably come out a couple months after. CMBN Market Garden, without the Upgrade, will probably come out a couple of months later. In addition a bundle of Market Garden and the Upgrade come out for $5 less than if you purchased the two separately. That's 50% off the Upgrade.

We don't allow preorders until we're sure the product will ship within 4-6 weeks. We expect the Upgrade to be out before this time period, which means for sure it will be in people's hands before Market Garden bundles can be preordered. Plus, I don't think our store software allows a bundle to be partially downloaded. Conceptually, though, I don't have a problem with it if it's possible.

Steve

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CMBN v1.11 Patch (free, no charge) will come out fairly soon after Italy ships. CMBN v2.00 Upgrade ($10) will probably come out a couple months after. CMBN Market Garden, without the Upgrade, will probably come out a couple of months later. In addition a bundle of Market Garden and the Upgrade come out for $5 less than if you purchased the two separately. That's 50% off the Upgrade.

We don't allow preorders until we're sure the product will ship within 4-6 weeks. We expect the Upgrade to be out before this time period, which means for sure it will be in people's hands before Market Garden bundles can be preordered. Plus, I don't think our store software allows a bundle to be partially downloaded. Conceptually, though, I don't have a problem with it if it's possible.

Steve

Thanks Steve.

I'm not worried about spending $5 more or less but I was curious. In any event, I plan to get it as soon as possible, as it will give me a jump start on modding with the new models/artwork.

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Okay, so CMFI in August, 2.0 in October, OMG in December. I'm good with that.

oh man what a great year. CMCW, CMFI, Version 2 and CMMG? Unfortunately for BF, there won't be any fanboi's on the forum to overeact to all the totally unintended slights :rolleyes:, we'll be too busy playing. LOL

And the really cool part is it looks like next year will be more of the same. Don't burn yourselves out guys.

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Ok now I'm confused.

The last sentence at the beginning of this Announcement says:

The next module in the CM:BN family (more about this in the coming days) will already be featuring CMx2 v2.0, and will *require* that upgrade.

Questions?

And now this...

CMBN v1.11 Patch (free, no charge) will come out fairly soon after Italy ships. CMBN v2.00 Upgrade ($10) will probably come out a couple months after. CMBN Market Garden, without the Upgrade, will probably come out a couple of months later. In addition a bundle of Market Garden and the Upgrade come out for $5 less than if you purchased the two separately. That's 50% off the Upgrade.

We don't allow preorders until we're sure the product will ship within 4-6 weeks. We expect the Upgrade to be out before this time period, which means for sure it will be in people's hands before Market Garden bundles can be preordered. Plus, I don't think our store software allows a bundle to be partially downloaded. Conceptually, though, I don't have a problem with it if it's possible.

Steve

I was under the impression this whole time that we HAD to upgrade to 2.0 once Market Garden comes out. But now that is not the case?

So there will be a CMBN: Market Garden 2.0 and also a CMBN Market Garden 1.11?

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Ok now I'm confused.

The last sentence at the beginning of this Announcement says:

And now this...

I was under the impression this whole time that we HAD to upgrade to 2.0 once Market Garden comes out. But now that is not the case?

So there will be a CMBN: Market Garden 2.0 and also a CMBN Market Garden 1.11?

As I understand it, this is more of a pricing package than a change in CMMG.

CM MG is not an engine release, it is just module content. It will not run on V1.10 or 1.11. You have to upgrade the base CMBN to Ver 2 to run.

The Upgrade for CMBN will be released prior for $10

It will also be released as a packge deal with MG for $5

MG will also be released in an unpackaged deal for those (like myself) who will buy the upgrade as soon as it is available as I want all the new additions for CMBN yesterday. :D. $5 isn't worth waiting months for if I can get the version 2 upgrade sooner. $5 extra for 2 months or so of playing a better version of CMBN, no question about it, I want it.

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. . . I was under the impression this whole time that we HAD to upgrade to 2.0 once Market Garden comes out. But now that is not the case?

So there will be a CMBN: Market Garden 2.0 and also a CMBN Market Garden 1.11?

Gunnersman, Somewhere in all the posting I think BFC has said definitively that you will not be able to use an expansion without purschasing the CM:BN upgrade. I think all that Steve is saying now is that you won't have to buy the upgrade twice if you upgrade CM:BN at the 1st opportunity. If you upgrade when it's first available (and before the new module is out) you pay $10. You can then buy the module alone. The alternative is to wait to upgrade until the module comes out and save $5 by getting them together.

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Price, profit and value...I don't know that we'll solve those age old issues on this forum.

I've gotten great value out of CMBN. Yeah, I'm on a tight budget so I can't just buy every game that comes out, or, it appears, every module and upgrade that BFC plans to offer. I have to consider the value I'll get out of it.

The Italian campaign doesn't interest me enough to plunk down $55. So far, I've not purchased the Commonwealth module, although it's one of those "roundtuit" purchases. The upgrade for ten bucks seems like a bargain.

I'm glad that BFC is presenting options...and I'll opt in some and opt out of others. I don't begrudge the CM player who is drooling over the chance to game out the Italian campaign his day in the sun. I'll be waiting for further developments in the ETO, just as others are chomping at the bit for the Eastern front.

Even if the next few releases are not my cup of tea and/or out of my current discretionary budget, I hope BFC sells 'em like hotcakes and continues to create great tactical wargames. Very few things in this vale of tears are gratis, and I've gotten to a point in life where I'm pretty sure the rest of the wold doesn't revolve around my sweet tuckis. I've also come to terms with the idea that I can't buy everything that catches my eye, and I'm not sore at those who can afford more toys and those who peddle the toys to them.

So I'm off to the Hedgerows again, for the umpteenth time, enjoying mods that I got for free, and still playing around with different tactics and combinations.

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I think all that Steve is saying now is that you won't have to buy the upgrade twice if you upgrade CM:BN at the 1st opportunity. If you upgrade when it's first available (and before the new module is out) you pay $10. You can then buy the module alone. The alternative is to wait to upgrade until the module comes out and save $5 by getting them together.

Bingo :) It would be pretty stupid of us to offer someone an Upgrade today for $10 and then tell them in a few months that they have to repurchase the Upgrade again at $5 if they want to play Market Garden.

I'm glad that BFC is presenting options...and I'll opt in some and opt out of others.

The fun thing here is that's always been the case. The only difference is if you opted out you were opting out of a new CM experience for at least 2 years, probably more, because that's how long it would take for the next game to come out. Thanks to the parallel development and Upgrade options, you have more chances to opt in or out within the same period of time.

Very few things in this vale of tears are gratis, and I've gotten to a point in life where I'm pretty sure the rest of the wold doesn't revolve around my sweet tuckis.

Even saying you are "pretty sure" puts you way ahead of most gamers. And certainly ahead of some of the extremist posters we've seen here.

BTW, the world doesn't revolve around us. We must make things which you guys want to buy. It is a humbling thing to say the least. Still, we're enlightened enough to know that doesn't make us the spank b'hatch any person who bought a game from us in the last 12 years. Some customers, however, don't see it the same way. And hilarity ensues when they make their case for why we should do everything they want us to AND do it for free :D

Steve

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Some customers, however, don't see it the same way. And hilarity ensues when they make their case for why we should do everything they want us to AND do it for free :D

Steve

Landed in NY, got cab to hotel, pulls up in front and some a** with his frightfully trashy GF is screaming at some guy who probably just finished hauling their drunken a**es around Central park for an hour on his tricycle touring rig to "take the $30 and walk away". Apparently felt like the guy was only repeating what the first 30 minutes would have paid for so he should only pay that...

I thought of you guys :D

By the way my lawn isn't gonna cut itself Steve, how soon you expect before you get around to it?

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@ Battlefront ... If that is your real name...

When the new games come out, will you be offering the collector's boxes? I ask because the combat mission games and manuals are the only ones on my desk, and due to the longevity with which they stay on my PC I like the idea of having the nicer boxes to look at.

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