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Jorge MC

game bug or realistic?

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never notice this till now,TigerII just crossing wire fence, please check the damage tracks after crossing

and all my other panzers IV and panthers change from green to yellow just by advancing to the front half map offroad, playing Engel campain

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By peipertj at 2012-06-04

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By peipertj at 2012-06-04

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By peipertj at 2012-06-04

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By peipertj at 2012-06-04

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Realistic to a point but unlikely.

During the war tanks were disabled by wire wrapping itself around the bits and pieces ( tracks, iddler wheels etc etc).Its why in some cases they stayed out of vine yards. Whether a farm fence has enough wire to have this happen is very questionable.

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During the war tanks were disabled by wire wrapping itself around the bits and pieces (tracks, idler wheels etc etc). It's why in some cases they stayed out of vine yards. Whether a farm fence has enough wire to have this happen is very questionable.

Bear in mind that this KT wasn't disabled. It's tracks were damaged, and if he keeps running it over wire fences, and accumulates enough notional wire around his running gear, it will eventually become disabled. But that is quite different to "1 fence, OMGWTFBBQ!!!"

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Realistic to a point but unlikely.

During the war tanks were disabled by wire wrapping itself around the bits and pieces ( tracks, iddler wheels etc etc).Its why in some cases they stayed out of vine yards. Whether a farm fence has enough wire to have this happen is very questionable.

sounds logic, but all my others tanks got same damage just by advancing on normal terrain all started in good condition

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sounds logic, but all my others tanks got same damage just by advancing on normal terrain all started in good condition

You've missed something then, or it's a bug unique to that map and your install. Vehicles don't take damage from "normal" terrain; they'd never get anywhere if they did. Maybe there's some 'rocky' (which can damage tracks, I understand) that you didn't consider hazardous.

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Don't know how realistic it is but this sort of damage makes my use of tanks in campaigns unrealistic. Unless it is an emergency I don't drive over fences, I area fire holes first.

The speed in which tracks pick up damage to yellow makes it a risky manuever everytime you are not driving over flat ground.

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Don't know how realistic it is but this sort of damage makes my use of tanks in campaigns unrealistic. Unless it is an emergency I don't drive over fences, I area fire holes first.

I have to agree. At least it seems overly restrictive on the mobility of your all-terrain vehicles. Was there a historical, systematic aversion to breaching linear obstacles with tracked vehicles? I don't often deliberately use area fire to break a fence or low wall, but I do often lead with light vehicles which are often plentiful and non-critical and can be relegated to rear area duties once they're close to immobilisation. It seems daft, even in light of the testimony of chaps here who've driven tanks in a professional capacity.

AIUI, each crossing has a chance of causing a step of cumulative damage to the vehicle. It's certainly a better system than each crossing having some (very low, in the case of tanks) chance of immobilising the vehicle outright, for gameplay, since games shouldn't be decided by the 1:10000 chance of your only Tank getting imobbed the first time it crosses a split rail fence. I think some of the probabilities are a bit high, though, for some vehicles crossing some terrains. Tanks should have a decent chance of tangling a significant amount of barbed wire (one damage step, I mean) when crossing an entanglement fortification, for example, but have a vanishingly small chance of a 2-strand field fence causing any inconvenience at all. I'd expect barbed wire fences to sometimes not even have the strands break when crossed slowly, just get flattened into the dirt; where's the tangle in that? And even if it was tightly-stretched and snapped, the ends would tend to pull away from the vehicle.

Checking the sanity of the chances of damage from obstacle-crossing would be far less work than a new vehicle model.

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do your tanks actually suffer mobility? I know the green "health" bar of the tracks turns a bit yellow, but how much is it affecting your King Tiger, already a slow mofo to begin with?

Been a while since I tested, but IIRC, the first couple grades of damage don't affect mobility at all -- it's not until you get down several grades that the tank's mobility is affected.

I don't really have problem with the way things are right now. As long as you're careful and don't charge through fences and the like willy-nilly (i.e., use Move or slower when moving over obstacles), it usually takes more than one fence breach to even go from full green to light green (one grade of damage). And it takes quite a few breaches to get the point where the tank's mobility is actually compromised at all. Seems realistic to me; off-road movement his hard on vehicles, even vehicles that are designed for it.

However, I would note that for campaigns specifically it's important for campaign designers to bear in mind that the tank crew itself is capable of basic maintenance and repair, especially of systems like tracks and roadwheels. So unless the campaign is modeling a situation where the tanks have had absolutely no break between combats to refuel and perform minor maintenance, it's probably not a good idea to set the refit/repair % to absolute 0. At the least, in most situations, the vehicle crews are likely to have at least a few minutes between between firefights to pull wire tangles out of the roadwheels, replace cracked vision blocks, perhaps replace a damaged track link or two, etc.

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Been a while since I tested, but IIRC, the first couple grades of damage don't affect mobility at all -- it's not until the you get down several grades that the tank's mobility is affected.

I don't really have problem with the way things are right now. As long as you're careful and don't charge through fences and the like willy-nilly (i.e., use Move or slower when moving over obstacles), it usually takes more than one fence breach to even go from full green to light green (one grade of damage). And it takes quite a few breaches to get the point where the tank's mobility is actually compromised at all. Seems realistic to me; off-road movement his hard on vehicles, even vehicles that are designed for it.

totally agree. I asked cuz I don't notice any effect when tracks are light green.

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A tweak would certainly be reasonable I think. I live on a farm and deal with that sort of wire on a regular basis. It is only strong enough to jam an axle if a lot of it gets wrapped around something in one spot. In most cases the wire just snaps. We have tractors/plows/etc that get wire wrapped in multiple spots and they just roll along like it isn't there.

Its something that in theory could certainly happen, but 99/100 times the tank would roll right over that three wire fence like it wasn't there.

Edit: Just to clarify, we don't make a habit of running over fences, there's usually loose wire here and there from old fences that can be problematic.

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We have tractors/plows/etc that get wire wrapped in multiple spots and they just roll along like it isn't there.

which is what the tanks do when their tracks are "light green." consider the light green status equivalent to full health, except one wire closer to a jam on the 99/100 tally.

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A tweak would certainly be reasonable I think. I live on a farm and deal with that sort of wire on a regular basis. It is only strong enough to jam an axle if a lot of it gets wrapped around something in one spot. In most cases the wire just snaps. We have tractors/plows/etc that get wire wrapped in multiple spots and they just roll along like it isn't there.

Its something that in theory could certainly happen, but 99/100 times the tank would roll right over that three wire fence like it wasn't there.

I would actually think the greater danger would be from running over a broken-off fencepost and putting stress on a track link, and/or dragging a broken portion of a fencepost into the running gear. To me, this is nicely abstracted by the way that slow moving tanks are less likely to experience track degradation that fast-moving ones. Presumably, the driver of the slow-moving tank is more able to pick his breach point, and avoid running the tracks over one of the fenceposts.

But again, bear in mind that running over a single fence never causes substantial damage to a tank's mobility in CMBN. You have to run over multiple fences before you see enough damage to cause a real reduction in the tank's mobility.

Of course, damage can accumulate from multiple sources, too -- if a tank's tread is already damaged from artillery fire, running over a fence might be enough to increase the damage enough to cause a reduction in mobility. But this makes sense -- if the track links are already weakened, they're going to be more easily pulled askew by wire.

I've worked on farms, too. And I've run tractors over wire fences and all other manner of garbage. I agree that single incidents like this certainly aren't a big deal. But I've never run a tractor over a half dozen fences, without stopping to clear any tangled wire on the wheels/treads in between... not sure what that would do, but I can imagine the cumulative effect might not be good.

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I certainly makes you think a little bit when plotting your advance through off road terrain. I also agree with the idea of campaign designers putting thought into what is possible in between battles during which maintenance can be accomplished.

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Let's dial down the hysteria, shall we? Some of us tested this. :) It may need to be tweaked, but let's look at what actually happened: a tank went through barbed wire and went from "perfect" tracks to "less than perfect".

I think you should do something like set up fences every 24m for 1,000m and run a tank through them. (I've done it.)

The light green does NOT continue to degrade with each fence. It takes a lot more to go from light green to yellow.

Test it. Play it.

Do it with all destroyable terrain. I was in the "tracks are too fragile" camp until I tested it. After the first bit of downgrade it takes a lot more for the next one.

Ken

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It's ridiculous for me, than breaking a wooden fence causes high chance of track damage for such heavy vehicle like Tiger or Panther tank (with their VERY heavy and thick tracks that could whitstand few penetrations by AP shells without breaking completly).

I have olso a feeling that breaking or crossing a stone/brick wall, should mean just some chance of immobilisation (track broken) and not gradual degrataion of mobility.

I also have an feeling/impression that ANY hit in "wheels" against my Tiger - either AP shell or bazooka - causes a mobility kill :). In reality, it would be difficult to block the running gear by damaging/destroying/removing single roadwheels. First, AP hit or bazooka hit has rather small chance of removing whole wheel (AP would just make a hole if it didn't hit the axle), the bazooka explosion could maybe break one roadwheel away, that would drop out and not affect mobility. It happened that a destroyed roadwheel blocked the running gear, but I bet it was rare occurence comparing to number of all hits on the undercarriage. Track hit is another matter, but again - single penetration of AP shell doesn't automatically mean breaking the track. Usually it become weakened and the tank driver had to maneuver with care to not break it completly. So reduction in mobility (we have this effect modelled already in CMBN, it just should have been assigned properly to events like AP hit). Medium and ligther tanks which didn't have such massive tracks (including PzIV, T-34, Sherman?) would probably get the track broken with a single AP penetration or bazooka hit. I mean, chance for that would be much higher. But hits on roadwheels, especially in case of Tiger and Panther with overlapping suspension, should IMO have slight chance of causing mobility kill - it would have to be an axle hit and whole set of wheels removed, to block the movement. Or leading/trailing wheel anxle damaged - that is sensitive spot.

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It's ridiculous for me, than breaking a wooden fence causes high chance of track damage for such heavy vehicle like Tiger or Panther tank (with their VERY heavy and thick tracks that could whitstand few penetrations by AP shells without breaking completly).

I have olso a feeling that breaking or crossing a stone/brick wall, should mean just some chance of immobilisation (track broken) and not gradual degrataion of mobility.

I also have an feeling/impression that ANY hit in "wheels" against my Tiger - either AP shell or bazooka - causes a mobility kill :). In reality, it would be difficult to block the running gear by damaging/destroying/removing single roadwheels. First, AP hit or bazooka hit has rather small chance of removing whole wheel (AP would just make a hole if it didn't hit the axle), the bazooka explosion could maybe break one roadwheel away, that would drop out and not affect mobility. It happened that a destroyed roadwheel blocked the running gear, but I bet it was rare occurence comparing to number of all hits on the undercarriage. Track hit is another matter, but again - single penetration of AP shell doesn't automatically mean breaking the track. Usually it become weakened and the tank driver had to maneuver with care to not break it completly. So reduction in mobility (we have this effect modelled already in CMBN, it just should have been assigned properly to events like AP hit). Medium and ligther tanks which didn't have such massive tracks (including PzIV, T-34, Sherman?) would probably get the track broken with a single AP penetration or bazooka hit. I mean, chance for that would be much higher. But hits on roadwheels, especially in case of Tiger and Panther with overlapping suspension, should IMO have slight chance of causing mobility kill - it would have to be an axle hit and whole set of wheels removed, to block the movement. Or leading/trailing wheel anxle damaged - that is sensitive spot.

There's a lot here. First, you need to recognize that light green does NOT equate to less mobility. You don't seem to know that. Toss a tank on a map, drive it through a fence, then do everything else you'd ordinarily do.

(BTW, you DON'T always get a light green from fences and gates.)

Re-read my post, upstream. Seriously.

Secondly, a single hit to running gear COULD cause a total loss of mobility. If it hits the drive sprocket, dead on the bearings, that track won't be going anywhere. So, you need to be MUCH more specific when you say that you think tracks are too fragile. Are rifle shots stopping tanks? Are hits from high velocity 3" guns immobilizing them? Etc.

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It's ridiculous for me, than breaking a wooden fence causes high chance of track damage for such heavy vehicle like Tiger or Panther tank (with their VERY heavy and thick tracks that could whitstand few penetrations by AP shells without breaking completly).

I have olso a feeling that breaking or crossing a stone/brick wall, should mean just some chance of immobilisation (track broken) and not gradual degrataion of mobility.

I also have an feeling/impression that ANY hit in "wheels" against my Tiger - either AP shell or bazooka - causes a mobility kill :). In reality, it would be difficult to block the running gear by damaging/destroying/removing single roadwheels. First, AP hit or bazooka hit has rather small chance of removing whole wheel (AP would just make a hole if it didn't hit the axle), the bazooka explosion could maybe break one roadwheel away, that would drop out and not affect mobility. It happened that a destroyed roadwheel blocked the running gear, but I bet it was rare occurence comparing to number of all hits on the undercarriage. Track hit is another matter, but again - single penetration of AP shell doesn't automatically mean breaking the track. Usually it become weakened and the tank driver had to maneuver with care to not break it completly. So reduction in mobility (we have this effect modelled already in CMBN, it just should have been assigned properly to events like AP hit). Medium and ligther tanks which didn't have such massive tracks (including PzIV, T-34, Sherman?) would probably get the track broken with a single AP penetration or bazooka hit. I mean, chance for that would be much higher. But hits on roadwheels, especially in case of Tiger and Panther with overlapping suspension, should IMO have slight chance of causing mobility kill - it would have to be an axle hit and whole set of wheels removed, to block the movement. Or leading/trailing wheel anxle damaged - that is sensitive spot.

thank you Amizaur you just put the exact words in how I feel specialy about the tracks, that my lack of english dint let me

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The question that arises in my mind from this is whether there is a difference in modelling wire fences/obstacles and various tracked vehicles. Tiger II down to Universal carrier.

Secondly, anyone straddled a wire fence and driven down its length to flatten it. I was being kind to my infantry but it was less successful than it should have been. But that was V1.

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I have olso a feeling that breaking or crossing a stone/brick wall, should mean just some chance of immobilisation (track broken) and not gradual degrataion of mobility.

For the sake of realism, you're probably right, most of the time, though there has been testimony from real tankers here on this forum that rough treatment of the tracks can lead to broken/bent/stressed elements that lead to later problems, given further rough treatment.

However, it remains undesirable that a single 'rough use' of any vehicle should cause its immediate incapacitation, for gameplay purposes. Especially when information about ground types which might cause such damage is so opaque to the player. Imagine the outcry if the single tank in a force threw a track the first time it crossed some 'rocky' terrain, no matter how low the percentage chance of it happening. That, IIRC, is BFC's rationale for the way they've set it up.

The cumulative damage model is not perfect but it's what we've got and the alternatives are worse for the game.

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