This is why I stopped playing...

[winkelried]

So you can begin to imagine what a barrage of 60mm and 105mm mix is like !!!

a heads-on car accident comes pretty close to the feeling.

[BadgerDog]

I stoped playing the game when I found out there was no bren tripod...

When I was a young soldier, I qualified on the Bren gun and it never had a tripod ...

Regards,

Doug

[sburke]

a heads-on car accident comes pretty close to the feeling.

at what speed? Did the occupants have seat belts or an airbag? What were the relative size and weight of the two cars?

[noob]

If the experience that Cpt Mike explained in this thread was representative of the game, CMBN would be a critical and financial disaster, as it isn't, there must be a reason, and that reason must be that either Mike's experience is a rarity or BF have somehow hypnotised a siginificant portion of the online wargames community to believe that **** is sugar.

[winkelried]

at what speed? Did the occupants have seat belts or an airbag? What were the relative size and weight of the two cars?

both cars approx 50 km/h - wearing seat belts - no airbags - a ford escort vs an audi 80 - not fully frontal approx 30% overlap - had a broken rib from the belt - a bit more than the 105ers did - but the feeling after the crash with all the smoke and being shaken had some similarities.

[sburke]

both cars approx 50 km/h - wearing seat belts - no airbags - a ford escort vs an audi 80 - not fully frontal approx 30% overlap - had a broken rib from the belt - a bit more than the 105ers did - but the feeling after the crash with all the smoke and being shaken had some similarities.

rotflmao okay now do you mind running that 100x to verify the effect is always the same...we'll wait.

[winkelried]

rotflmao okay now do you mind running that 100x to verify the effect is always the same...we'll wait.

that would certainly remove random (or black swan) events

[Vark]

It might be illuminating, to the discussion, if someone can say how HE fire is simulated. Bullets are tracked, IIRC, but how is a shell/rocket or bomb's effect calculated? I cannot believe it is by individual splinters, so what method is used, given the effects of blast/over-pressure and flash have to be taken into account for.

[JonS]

*I'm not a tough guy, and I would prefer not to tell 'war stories' on an internet message board, but you've given me no alternative and you've pushed me to do it. You've done everything up to this point in accusing me of being a liar, and I'm not sure why. You must really love this game, to defend it to such a ridiculous point. I'm not sure you even recognize what you're talking about.

That's not really a fair summation. You have experienced in one very small, very short indirect attack. No one is suggesting it was either pleasant or amusing, but in turn you shouldn't suggest that it - or your reaction - is either representative or typical. The Normandy campaign went on for 64 days of high intensity combat. Most infantry battalions, Allied and German, were in the line for the vast majority of that time, and received some incoming artillery of calibres from 81mm to 150mm on most of those 64 days, and some days were on the receiving end of much more and much larger. Most British infantry (and most likely other nations too) probably experienced more and closer artillery in training than you did in combat.

And yet the front lines barey moved on any part of the front for the majority of those 64 days.

Indirect fire isn't fun, but it is survivable - mentally and physically. You know that, because you are here to tell us exactly that. But we already know that because the Normandy campaign lasted so long, and because vast majority of infantry soldiers survived it.

Any muppet can trot out platitudes about the importance of combining fire and movement, and the need to apply combined arms on the battlefield. I know the thoery down pat, but I regularly find that actually applying it in CM is hard. Really hard. Most of the time I screw it up because I can't get my suport wepoans into a useful location, or my timing is slightly off, or I send guys to the wrong location, or have them looking in the wrong direction, or I apply too much or too little fire before sending in the infantry. But sometimes I do get it right, and I know when that is because an attack seems trivially easy - I suffer barely any casualties and the enemy is routed quickly and completely. Sometimes I get the bear, but usually the bear gets me. And that's the way /I/ like it.

On a more pragmatic and CM-centric note; a significant part of your particular problem in this one particular anecdotal and isolated example could well be down to the German unit's experience and motivation. Veteran and higher troops are /really/ resistant to long term morale effects in CM. They are great to have on your side, but a real bugger to try and evict when you're on the attack. If you want results that you think and more in keeping with your personal experience then go in to the editor and dial down the experience and motivation of all the units on both sides by a level or too ... and then get to enjoy the frustration of trying to organise your herd of cats

Jon

[YankeeDog]

It might be illuminating, to the discussion, if someone can say how HE fire is simulated. Bullets are tracked, IIRC, but how is a shell/rocket or bomb's effect calculated? I cannot believe it is by individual splinters, so what method is used, given the effects of blast and over-pressure have to be taken into account for.

I don't have any special knowledge, but I think individual splinters are modeled, at least to a degree -- this explains why you can sometimes (but not often) get casualties quite a long distance from a larger HE detonation. Only larger, high-velocity fragments could possibly cause injuries at a long distance from the detonation -- blast effect dissipates quickly with distance, and smaller, lighter shell fragments don't fly very far before losing velocity and falling to the ground. But you're probably right that the game isn't modeling every single splinter generated by a shell.

My SWAG is that the game models a blast effect and relatively small, short range splinters more abstractly, but larger splinters may well be modeled basically the same way as bullets are.

Bear in mind that all this is related to, but not exactly the same thing as the suppression caused by an HE shell on nearby soldiers. Suppression is mostly a psychological thing -- anything that makes a soldier *think* he is in imminent danger can reduce his fighting effectiveness and potentially cause suppression. But blast and concussion wave especially can also have physical effects that contribute to suppression -- at relatively close range, blast waves can cause vertigo, etc. that reduce a soldier's ability to fight effectively, even if he is psychologically still "in it".

[JonS]

At this stage in the proceedings, would the dead wood not have been winnowed out leaving a core of troops that could handle artillery fire?

During the Normandy Campaign? No, not really. All sides were constantly dumping huge numbers of fresh troops - reinforcements and replacements - into the hopper. The average experience of /combat/ troops probably didn't increase all that much between June 1944 and May 1945 - right up until the last weeks of the war Allied units were making rookie mistakes. The German's performance went from pretty-ok in Normandy to abysmal in December and appallingly bad in April.

What was improving a lot, at least for the Allies, was the command and staff proceedures at Bn up through to Corps level. Those guys tended to survive and hang around long enough to get a really good handle on making sure all the needed pieces were available and in the right place before starting an attack. That gave the attacking troops the best start possible, but they still had to stand up and walk forward, and to a large degree they were no more experienced than the guys who'd stepped ashore on 6 June.

[Crushingleeek]

but, to play devi'ls advocate, platoon and to some degree squad leaders (someone who would have an mp40) of the 352nd division, which was in the area of vierville at this time, were primarily seasoned veterans taken from the eastern front. so its possible the guy that gunned down cpt mike's squad was a real killer.

[Apocalypse 31]

so its possible the guy that gunned down cpt mike's squad was a real killer.

In one instance he actually shot a 60mm mortar round out of the sky! In another, he caught a piece of hot shrapnel with his bare hands, took a bite out of it, then threw it at one my squaddies, killing him instantly!

[JonS]

but, to play devi'ls advocate, platoon and to some degree squad leaders (someone who would have an mp40) of the 352nd division, which was in the area of vierville at this time, were primarily seasoned veterans taken from the eastern front. so its possible the guy that gunned down cpt mike's squad was a real killer.

Initially, sure. And the same was true of a couple of British and a few US divisions. But cas were so heavy for so long that veterans typically didn't last very long.

[theFightingSeabee]

In one instance he actually shot a 60mm mortar round out of the sky! In another, he caught a piece of hot shrapnel with his bare hands, took a bite out of it, then threw it at one my squaddies, killing him instantly!

So you didn't know that Chuck Norris was modeled in the game?

[winkelried]

the germans lost some 2300 officers up to July 17th - and could only replace 12% of the losses overall. the U.S. also had some problems to replace the 25'000 riflemens they lost in normandy - in some units all majors and captains were casualties after a few weeks. didn't help to increase experience levels.

i remember a statement which said that being a veteran from the eastern front wasn't really advantage since the western allies fought differently. i.e. they didn't run, when pressured as the russians did. therefore some germans units had staggering losses when attacking.

[Brindlewolf]

Try the very first scenario in the 'CW in the shadow of the hill' series and you ll get an idea of arty in this game,in regard to woods.3 times i've tried this scenario.You have to take a farm on the rightside of the map and some 'Horseshoe woods' on the left.You get a company to take each objective.

Now the farm isn't easy but it can be achieved by use of tanks.Now 3 times i found the woods on the left to be a problem each time.Bear in mind you're also pushed for time to get to these woods.

So on my third attempt i more or less put 3/4s of my arty(and you do get a lot) over a 40 min period on the first leg of the horseshoe.Then once the farm was taken i had every tank batter it with HE and then proceed to move in with 10 mins of the scenario left,i'm cutting it fine.

So i now have a whole company backed by half of the company that took the farm.Easy win,nothing will be in those woods.**** me how deluded i was there.2 mgs still up and running,an HQ unit with mp40 and uber pistol,a zook squad and a couple of riflemen.I got ripped apart.Basically nothing should have been in that first part of the woods with the amount of arty and tank fire put in there.I got a draw and lucky to get that.

A no-win situation that map i found and all that fire power put in there was for nothing.

Great set of scenarios though and don't see this as a 'bitching post' because it's not meant to be.I can see what the original OP is getting at though it can be frustrating but hey,War is Hell and Hell is for Heroes.

[Crushingleeek]

Initially, sure. And the same was true of a couple of British and a few US divisions. But cas were so heavy for so long that veterans typcailly didn't last very long.

but he was playing vierville. and vierville was taken on june 6, 1944, so this would be "initially." and realistically, vierville wasn't really contested.

[JonS]

Ack. Good point. I was thinking more generally, about the campaign as a whole.

Edit: but by the same token, then, Trailape's 'winnowing process' wouldn't have occurred either.

[JonS]

A no-win situation that map i found and all that fire power put in there was for nothing.

I PBEM'd that battle, as British, and won.

[Crushingleeek]

i remember a statement which said that being a veteran from the eastern front wasn't really advantage since the western allies fought differently. i.e. they didn't run, when pressured as the russians did. therefore some germans units had staggering losses when attacking.

i've read quite the opposite, which is not to say one is right or wrong. you'll surely hear accounts of polar opposites regarding the same thing on every subject in WWII (*Ahem* original post).

German officers were saying, at least as it pertained to 29th Div, that the Americans were quick to be suppressed, did not exploit advantages when they presented themselves, and retreated well before needed. This is, in part, why at the Bulge, they even had the idea that maybe if they broke through and captured Antwerp, maybe the western allies/Americans would negotiate a peace.

Of course, the 29th would have something to say about this. ie, of course this is the sour excuse of a defeated army.

[Crushingleeek]

Ack. Good point. I was thinking more generally, about the campaign as a whole.

Edit: but by the same token, then, Trailape's 'winnowing process' wouldn't have occurred either.

regardless, I welcome a distraction from the OP!

[Crushingleeek]

In one instance he actually shot a 60mm mortar round out of the sky! In another, he caught a piece of hot shrapnel with his bare hands, took a bite out of it, then threw it at one my squaddies, killing him instantly!

He once tried to be wrong, but he failed miserably.

He is, the most interesting man in the Werhmacht.

[Pak40]

Ok, obviously not reading my posts. Well...you know what they say about arguing on the internet....

Well, obviously I am because I've responded to just about all of them as you well know. Anyway, the point I was trying to make was that you're projecting how you would react under 105 and 60mm fire. You're not taking into account others who could and would react differently. And speaking of Mike Tyson, a good analogy is that he is a man that can take some serious punishment to the head. It takes a lot to rattle him. I, on the other hand, wouldn't last 1 round with a flyweight. Do you see the point I'm trying to make? Different men have different reactions, breaking points, etc... So maybe, just maybe, it's possible that the German with the MP40 that was able to pop his head up after your 105/60mm barrage was a Mike Tyson BADASS.

*I'm not a tough guy, and I would prefer not to tell 'war stories' on an internet message board, but you've given me no alternative and you've pushed me to do it. You've done everything up to this point in accusing me of being a liar, and I'm not sure why. You must really love this game, to defend it to such a ridiculous point. I'm not sure you even recognize what you're talking about.

Actually we like war stories here. In fact I've got book shelf full of them. While I don't have your field experience I certainly did take that into account. But, I've also read a lot of other 1st person accounts like the aforementioned LaFiere Causeway battle. And to be honest, I place a lot more weight on what they say than you or any others say on the net.

So when someone says "I'm not playing CMBN anymore because this one guy got shot by a guy that should have been suppressed", my gut instinct is to say how the hell do you know? BFC has done a lot more research into these things than you, I, or anyone else.

[sburke]

And speaking of Mike Tyson, a good analogy is that he is a man that can take some serious punishment to the head. It takes a lot to rattle him.

So maybe, just maybe, it's possible that the German with the MP40 that was able to pop his head up after your 105/60mm barrage was a Mike Tyson BADASS.

Any of those GIs get their ear bit off?