Panzerjäger Abteilung (Pak Battallions) Normandy

[SolSolari]

I was wondering if someone could help me. I am playing out a campaign with a friend of mine and I am concerned that there may have been some confusion over what a Panzerjager Battalion is comprised of for D-Day on Juno beach.

According to one source I've read a Panzerjager Battalion (the 352nd's) had the following units:

352. Panzerjäger Abteilung

14 x Marder II and Marder III variant Panzerjäger

10 x StuG III Ausf. G assault guns

9 x FlaKPanzer 38 Self-Propelled Flak

Another Unit, the 716th's had:

4x Self-Propelled 7.5cm Pak 40 (a)

3x 7.5cm PaK 40

1x 8.8cm PaK 43/41

1x 2cm Flak

or

10 heavy AT guns on tracked chassis. (some kind of locally made conversion)

eleven heavy AT guns (not motorized).

6 Of the AT guns that were not on tracked chassis, probably two were 8,8 cm Pak 43/41 and nine were 7,5 cm Pak 40.7 The AT guns on tracked chassis were 7,5 cm Pak 40.8

I have 3 questions:

1) Is the 352nd's formation unusually strong for a Panzerjäger Battalion or standard strength at this period in Normandy?

2) What would a standard strength of Panzerjäger Battalion of the period (in general accepting the usual statements that german formations tended not to be standard) be comprized of?

3) Does anyone have a better idea what the 716th's Panzerjäger Battalion unit was comprised of?

[JonS]

On D-Day:

Pz.Jg.-Abtl. 716

Gefechtsstand – Biéville

Kdr.: Oberleutnant Kurt Kaergel

1. (Sfl.) Kp. – Biéville (ten 7.5cm s.Pak Sfl. Auf Lorraine Schlepper)

2. (Pz.Jg.-bo) Kp. – Reviers (nine 7.5cm and three 8.8cm s.Pak)*

3. (Flak) Kp. – Anisy (one Züg was east of the Orne 1 kilometer west of Sallenelles)**

* The guns were deployed on the low ridge overlooking the beaches from St. Aubin to La Riviere.

** The company had 12 2cm mobile guns, probably truck mounted self-propelled pieces. There were also 20 2cm and six 7.5cm (f) static antiaircraft guns in the division zone. The 2cm guns were scattered among the various WN, while the 7.5cm guns were south of Bernieres.

Pz.Jg.-Abtl. 352

Gefechtsstand – Mestry

Kdr.: Hauptmann Werner Jahn

1. (Sfl.) Kp. – Bricqueville (14 7.5cm s.Pak (Sfl.))

2. (Stu.G.) Kp. – Château de Colombières (ten Stu.G.)

3.(Flak) Kp. – Pont l’Abbé (15 kilometers south of Valognes) (nine 3.7cm Flak)

352nd's PzJ Abt was stronger than most, but not totally out of whack. Above you can see a definite similarity between the 352nd's and that for 716th.

A 'standard' inf div PzJ Abt would consist of a self-propelled company (which might be Marders or StuGs, or some lash-up on a French chassis), a towed company (generally 7.5cm) and a FlaK company (2cm). On the order of 9-12 guns per company.

Some more examples:

Pz.Jg.-Abt. 709

Gefechtsstand – Câtelet (2 kilometers southeast of Valognes)

1. (Sfl.) Kp. (nine 7.5cm s.Pak Sfl. auf Lorraine-Schlepper)

2. (Mot.) Kp. – Fleury (2 kilometers northeast of Jobourg) (12 7.5cm s.Pak)

3. (Flak) Kp. (nine 3.7cm Flak (Mot.)

Pz.Jg.-Abtl. 243

Gefechtsstand – La Commanderie (6 kilometers east of Les Pieux)

Kdr: Oberleutnant Franz Stratmann

1. (Sfl.) Kp. – Aux Petits (4 kilometers north of Berneville) (14 7.5cm s.Pak (Sfl.))

2. (Stu.G..-Abtl. 1243) Kp.– Le Pont aux Moines (1 kilometer south of St. Jacques) (10 Stu.G.)

3. (Flak) Kp. (four 2cm Flak-Sfl., and eight 2cm Flak-Mot.)

Jon

[Crinius]

As far as I could say the Panzerjäger-Abteilung 352 was unusually strong as the Stugs werent an organic part. They beefed the Abteilung up.

Regarding the organisation of Panzerjäger-Abteilung 716 theres a nice organigramm here:

http://www.fireandfury.com/orbats/late716infantriedivdday.pdf

[JonS]

Regarding the organisation of Panzerjäger-Abteilung 716 theres a nice organigramm here:

Bear in mind that the linked organigram is primarily used to show how to represent the Abt (and other 716th ID units) in the F&F game, not as it actually existed on 6 June. The two are definitely related, but I'd be dubious about using the F&F organi for anything other than playing F&F.

From the F&F website:

Unit Organization

One of the strongest features of Battlefront WWII is its emphasis on proper force composition and organization. In addition to specific orders of battle in our scenarios, we present large numbers of Tables of Organization and Equipment (TOE) for the various forces represented in the rules. These are presented in the context of the game, showing how maneuver elements are built from individual units and then how higher echelon formations are built from maneuver elements.

[skogtroll]

You should check this: http://www.ospreypublishing.com/store/Panzer-Divisions-1944%E2%80%9345_9781846034060

This book isn't very precise but should help you a little. I can't find a site where German TOE's was shown graphically, but I still searching.

What mean standard strength? IMO Panzerjäger-Abteilung should have about 45 Marders or other TD + other vehicles. However in practise this was a very rare situation.

[skogtroll]

http://www.wwiidaybyday.com/kstn/kstn1148d1nov43.htm

I don't know if this K.St.N. is proper for the Normandy but I think it very similar.

[JonS]

IMO Panzerjäger-Abteilung should have about 45 Marders or other TD + other vehicles.

That's an interesting opinion. Do you have any examples of infantry divisions deploying the Normandy with a (sfl.) strength even remotely close to that?

[skogtroll]

That's an interesting opinion. Do you have any examples of infantry divisions deploying the Normandy with a (sfl.) strength even remotely close to that?

I checked this. According to K.St.N. from I April 1944 there was 31 TD's in Panzerjäger-Abteilung (JagdPz IV and Stugs). I don't have any examples know because I have only a little time and I don't have time to search. I find only this: http://panzerjaeger-info.fuehr-online.de/html/WH2.html

Personally I don't think that this kind of units have ever so many vehicles that in K.St.N., especially in infantry divisions. I didn't heard about case like this. Even if, there was a mix of marders, stugs, JPzs and towed guns.

[JonS]

Yes, well, then wittering on about what the German's would /like/ to have had is a bit pointless, no?

Personally I don't think units ever had as many vehicles as called for in the K.St.N., especially in the Nazi Army

FTFY. The Nazi-era German military could never, ever, supply all the shiny things they wanted to have.

[Rokko]

That would be Nazi-era industry actually, right?

[JonS]

Both. The military was pretty tightly involved in manufacture, and anyway it is the military who strictly are responsible for supply. Referring to planning KStN is a bit like drooling over blueprints for the Maus or the Graf Zeppelin, and industry weren't the ones coming up with improbable KStN.

I had a quick flick through Zetterling's Normandy book this morning. In the inf divs a PzJ Abt made up of 1 x PaK Kp, 1 x StuG Kp, and 1 x leFlaK Kp was utterly normal. A common variation was that the PaK Kp might be (Sfl.). Static divisions (grossly; the 200 series and 700 series divisions) often omitted both the leFlaK and StuG Kps. Although the remaining PaK Kp might be a bit stronger, at least some of those extra guns were either lighter 50mm and/or fixed in coastal fortifications.