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Sakai007

Russian Troops in Syria!!!

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"The Iman replaced another Russian ship "which had been sent to Syria for... possible evaluation of Russian citizens," the Black Sea Fleet told Interfax."

Those Russians are tough. They "evaluate" citizens while we evacuate lol.

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While it's entirely possible that spetsnaz or FSA (KGB) osoby are on the ground advising regime forces (not a combat or assassin role-- they're too conspicuous), I doubt they'd enter via ship or use one as a base. More likely they're providing security, agaimst the possibility the opposition or its overseas sympathizers decide to hijack the vessel to draw attention to Russia's sorid role. Very prudent.

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Prudent and Russia go hand in hand, more often then not, to the harm of their own people from time to time. The fact that they deride any talk of foreign troops on Syrian soil in the UN, then send their own SF to 'asses' and others to advise is really something. They have effectively killed any chance of western air intervention with the possibility of killing Russian troops on accident. Not saying that is likely, but now it's impossible. I wonder how the Russians would react if we sent Green Berets in to train and advise the Free Syrian Army??? It would be a poop storm of epic proportions.

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That's why Allah made the Iraqi peshmerga. Sunnis, 30 years fighting Saddam in the Kurdish hills and then ably assisting US forces in places like Ramadi (mosque raids). They were the Coalition's only loyal allies and I hope Uncle Sam doesn't do to them what he did to the Hmong.... But who am I kidding? Those poor people are screwed by history.

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Prudent and Russia go hand in hand, more often then not, to the harm of their own people from time to time. The fact that they deride any talk of foreign troops on Syrian soil in the UN, then send their own SF to 'asses' and others to advise is really something. They have effectively killed any chance of western air intervention with the possibility of killing Russian troops on accident. Not saying that is likely, but now it's impossible. I wonder how the Russians would react if we sent Green Berets in to train and advise the Free Syrian Army??? It would be a poop storm of epic proportions.

Meh. Russia has actually been criticising Syrian government publically. They're not about to support them militarily, apart from the strategic fact that they have a naval base up there.

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Uncle Sam has no problem killing Russians; we and the Yanks, assisted by Inuit scouts, killed a number of spetsnaz intruding on our tundra back in the Cold War. No doubt they returned the favour in Siberia (and Korea and Vietnam).

And I'm reliably informed quite a few USSF, SEALs and SAS went "left of the Khyber" during the Soviet invasion, and a few didn't come back. That stuff from "Charlie Wilson's War" about so many Russian planes being lost that they had to stand down air operations for 3 months, you don't think that was mujahideen behind the Stingers, do you? (at least not initially). And ever wonder why so few Stingers were left behind (none have been confirmed used against NATO forces)?

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As far as I know LongLeftFlank, Stingers have a usge by date. If you know what I mean.

On a sidenote I also reskinned everthing in CMSF to represent Russian forces but the repository is so **** it wouldnt let me upload it. This forum and the repository are archaic. If I can ever get hosting for the entire 100 something MB file ill put it up for use, but so far only I and PurpHeart have it.

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The death toll of the Cold War was surprising to me when I started to educate myself about such things. The aircraft losses alone (the only reliable number I have seen) are enough that, at the time, I marveled on how WWIII didn't break out.

I just think of the Chinese who we killed on 'accident' during the air war over Bosnia in the late 90's. The media made a lot of noise about it. I can only think that today that would be multiplied ten fold if we put down a few 'advisers' with a JDAM supporting rebel forces.

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As far as I know LongLeftFlank, Stingers have a usge by date. If you know what I mean.

On a sidenote I also reskinned everthing in CMSF to represent Russian forces but the repository is so **** it wouldnt let me upload it. This forum and the repository are archaic. If I can ever get hosting for the entire 100 something MB file ill put it up for use, but so far only I and PurpHeart have it.

Use GreenAsJade's site instead. Click the link in my sigline to get there. It's easier to work with than the Repository, and a lot of the community knows it.

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Actually this is kind of old news, the word went out that there were some kind of Russian infantry on that tanker on Monday.

The Russians have a naval basing rights lease in Tartus and by definition Russian naval infantry there is not an escalation, they have every right to be there.

I've seen a couple of reports that it's a battalion of "anti-terrorism specialists". The Kremlin line on them is yes they're there but they have nothing to do with the Syrian civil war, they are part of an ongoing Russian effort to assist in supressing the Somali pirates, although they "might provide assistance" if it becomes necessary to evacuate Russian civilians. For practical purposes they appear to be Russian marines trained up to a standard for operations in the Caucases, which is pretty high. There are a couple of vids out there of these guys sticking it to the Somali pirates, they seem fairly competent and professional from what I could see. Potty mouths of course but then they are Russian marines.

Anyway, I think it is fun to remember that the Russians also have a minor fleet element wandering around the eastern Mediterranean, and they could reinforce it fairly quickly and substantially. They have something like two brigades of naval infantry in Sevastopol and Novorossisk, carrier ships are ready to go. It's about four days' sailing to Tartus.

And f the Russians could get air transit via Iraq (easier than you think, the Iraqis would prefer Assad stay in power) then theoretically the Russians could funnel troops in from the Caucasus and Central Asia as well. And that's not counting the Russian airborne, I think they have something like six brigades of those airborne guys who are at first level readiness.

Unlike NATO, the Russians are not stuck in any wars and have a substantial amount of uncommitted infantry and support capacity available to them. Gaming a Russian intervention in Syria can be pretty entertaining.

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How about the Syrians try to access the Russian nukes in Tartus, and the Russians send in an armored task force to flatten the city etc. Any chance we could use LLF's wonderful map(s)?

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My dance card is full, but if you take the northern section of the JOKER THREE map and delete the Saddam Mosque and water tower, and most of the residential blocks south of there, you have a ready-built waterfront industrial district. Doing convincing docks and ocean will require some more creativity.

Again, I deny the entire premise of having Russians in a shooting war in the modern Middle East. So I see little point in taking much time building a highly realistic map for an extremely farfetched scenario. But hey, fly at her if that's what you like.

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Sorry, almost certainly no Russian nukes in harbor, the ships are a (naval) tanker and some kind of reconnaissance trawler. And I think the biggest thing they have actually in the Mediterranean right now is a frigate.

A more reasonable scenario might be:

- Assad goes from just homocidal to genocidal AND it spills over somehow into Turkey

- This triggers some form of NATO response, we can't wait for the UN etc.

- The Russians say "Oh yeah" and deploy troops themselves

- NATO and Russia forces (obviously) studiously avoid getting near one another, but from time to time kill lots of Syrians on whichever side they're not backing

If you posit spillover into Iraq I guess you might be able to theorize a US intervenion exclusive of Europe and NATO, but with Iraqi forces.

For extra fun posit the Iranians then allowing the Russians ground transit to the Iraqi frontier.

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Both you guys' points are very educational and very interesting.

However, my objectives are not to create RL sim scenarios, just to (gently and respectfully persuade LLF to) have fun with what CMSF/CMA provides with the backdrop of history to provide a tiny modicum of context - like making a movie.

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Well boys, the Russian destroyer Smetlivy sailed from Sevastopol a couple of days ago and it should be showing up at Tartus to take on supplies any time now. Then she's supposed to be in the eastern Mediterranean "on training" into May.

Here she is stinking up greater Istanbul:

http://turkishnavy.files.wordpress.com/2012/04/810_4.jpg?w=890

As I understand it there is a Russian guided missile frigate floating around the region as well.

Be it far from me to play the Red-baiter, however, Acmemapper informs me Tartus is about 60 kilometers from Homs.

The nearest airport to Tartus (i.e., where an Il-76 could land) is in Latakiya, about 60 km up the coast.

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Well boys, now the al-Assad people are saying it's the Turks that are the problem, Ankara isn't just arming the Syrian opposition but helping them set up bases next to Syria, and then Turkish troops are helping Syrian rebels sneak into Syria. So Syria's army is justified in tightening up its border with Turkey, if the Turkish army crosses into Syria Damascus will defend itself, etc. etc.

You gotta believe that if somehow the NATO Turks wound up shooting at Syrian army, the Russians would do something. Maybe just bump up the ammunition stream, but they wouldn't ignore it.

All in all this thing has the makings of a nice little proxy war.

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As I've noted before, I pity da fool who picks a fight with the Turks on or near their home turf. They're some of the best organized killers on the planet when they get pissed. Their military command is probably as corrupt as Syria's, with commensurate logistical weaknesses, but their soldiers will close with the enemy, and they will win or die trying.

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Fair enough, but like you said the skill of the command makes a difference. The PKK kills Turkish soldiers pretty regularly, and seems to have a pretty good idea of how to exploit the country's political situation so as to make the rules of engagement favor the Kurds. The Turkish soldiers pay the price.

My fave Turkish military trivia is from the Korean War, it turns out the Chinese/North Koreans had an awful time getting Turkish POWs to turn and go on radio and make anti-Capitalist statements, betray their buddies, and so forth. Americans supposedly were by far the easiest for the Communists to "re-educate"; the Commonwealth POWs somewhat more difficult, but the Turks basically proved impossible for the Chinese/NKoreans to do anything with. The difference was apparently social: when the Communists separated the NCOs, officers, and junior enlisted into separate groups, that left the privates and corporals from the English-speaking countries without a command structure, and it was every man for himself. When the same thing was done to the Turks, the oldest guy in the group just took over as the man in charge. As long as there were two Turkish POWs together, the story goes, it was always clear who was the commander even if there were no military leaders present - it was always the oldest man.

Of course, I'd be willing to bet the Chinese/NKoreans had next to zero people of their own who could speak Turkish, and since Turkey was poor it's a reasonable assumption the people they sent to Korea were mostly volunteers, not like the draftees the Americans especially threw into the theater. Still, it's a great story I think.

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Of course, I'd be willing to bet the Chinese/NKoreans had next to zero people of their own who could speak Turkish, and since Turkey was poor it's a reasonable assumption the people they sent to Korea were mostly volunteers, not like the draftees the Americans especially threw into the theater. Still, it's a great story I think.

The Ujghurs from western China wouldn´t find turkish difficult. I don´t know of course if there were any Ujghurs in the Chinese Army in Korea.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uyghur_language

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A buddy of mine's Dad served with the Australians in Korea. At the Turks' insistence, the Diggers were always on their right flank. He recalled the Turks in their long woolen underwear, sharpening their long bayonets in the dawn chill. The Chicoms evidently learned to avoid infiltration attempts in that part of the front.

As to performance against the PKK, any army is going to take casualties from landmines and roadside bombs, especially in a rugged area where the population is warlike and hostile (A'stan anyone?) The Turkish army seems to lose most of its guys getting blown up in trucks.

Again, it certainly isn't the most effective army in the world, but as your Korea anecdote also suggests, they are some of the best natural infantry.

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Well of course if you want to talk good infantry the Red Chinese and their Winter offensive 1950-51 are pretty much one of the classic definitions of best ever. Allies have air supremacy and unlimited ammunition, and the Chinese have nothing bigger than 120mm mortars, and their supply is animal- or human-powered, and still they manage to infiltrate three army groups to jump-off positions, achieve, strategic surprise and inflict one of the biggest routs US forces have ever been subjected to. I just checked, 8th Army's retreat was the longest ever conducted by a US major formation. True terrain, weather and MacArthur helped, but still, that's some serious infantry achievement for you.

Viz the Turks this just in. It's just tough to have a good army if you don't sort the politics ahead of time.

ANKARA, Turkey (AP) — Turkish police have searched the homes of dozens of former military personnel, including one retired general, in a new probe against the military.

They are accused of pressuring the country's first pro-Islamic prime minister to resign in 1997 for allegedly trying to increase the profile of Islam in this predominantly Muslim but secular country.

Authorities say an arrest warrant has been issued for the suspects, including Ret. Gen. Cevik Bir, for attempting to overthrow the government in 1997.

The probe comes as the country's Islamic-rooted government tries to bury military influence in politics. Earlier this month, Turkey put two elderly leaders of a 1980 military coup on trial. Hundreds of suspects, including several officers, are separately on trial for allegedly plotting to topple the current government.

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Talking of historical fighting reputations the Kurds have a good pedigree and a strong tribal structure. The greatest threat to the Turks military reputation is political ,and for all the finger crossing and diplomatic bromides I doubt Turkey will remain secular much longer, de jure perhaps, but not de facto.

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"...it was always clear who was the commander even if there were no military leaders present - it was always the oldest man."

:)

Any info on foreign retirement to Turkey?

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