Volksgrenadiers

[YankeeDog]

the PPSh round was substantially lighter than the .45 round (and 9mm too, I think), but had a higher velocity.

And actually, it isn't too difficult to fire a full auto, 9mm SMG accurately out to at least 50m or so, even for an untrained civilian like myself.

A while back, bought one of those "fire a real Machine Gun!" packages at a touristy firing range while I was on vacation.

9mm SMG was no problem to consistently get all but one round of a 3-4 round burst into a 2'x2' square at about 50m after I'd fired off a few bursts and gotten used to the thing. Initially, I was actually over compensating for the muzzle climb, and my 3 & 4th rounds were going into the dirt. Once I got used to it, though, even 4th round was still on the paper and not too far out of the box.

Now, granted, this was firing range conditions, and I do have a fair amount of (civilian) experience with firearms, but this was my first, and only, time ever firing anything full auto. I should think a decently trained soldier with more practice could do much better.

Controlling a 9mm on full auto is no harder than controlling a small chainsaw. It jumps around a bit the first time you use it, but once you get used to it, you can make it go pretty much wherever you want. Firing full auto 9mm was very similar to what I learned for combat 9mm pistol shooting -- you just use a lot of opposing pressure between your two arms to control the weapon and keep it from wandering too much. Just don't get lazy or it'll jump up and bite you.

In my experience, it's much harder for a fireams novice to learn to fire a full rifle cailiber weapon well enough fire 2 rounds from an offhand stance into a 2'x2' target within, say, 2 seconds of each other. Beginning shooters tend to really lose their stance and sight picture from the recoil from the first shot, and it takes them a while to reset. They also tend to flinch a lot pulling the trigger in anticipation of the recoil which pulls things way off.

By comparison, 9mm full auto is easy to control. Prone or seated with something to brace against, it's even easier.

Cheers,

YD

[jtcm]

What a daft thread.

[blue division]

Originally posted by YankeeDog:

And actually, it isn't too difficult to fire a full auto, 9mm SMG accurately out to at least 50m or so, even for an untrained civilian like myself.

Is this a modern SMG? They have improved a lot since 1944. To compare a modern weapon with one designed in the '30's is a bit misleading.

Modern SMG's such as the HK are excellent weapons for policemen and special forces. But they are a long way removed from a sten or MP40.

The firing mechanism is the problem. For example, the Sten used a heavy spring to reload the weapon.

Crude - but cheap to make (and simple to operate and maintain in the field).

Such a crude mechanism meant in practice was that the gun would be jumping violently in your hand when firing a burst. Of course, with training you can minimise this (correct stance etc). But we are back to the same old argument now...

[Sirocco]

The argument seems to be that VG divisions couldn't have been any good because they were issued lavishly with SMG's, which weren't as accurate at range as rifles? :confused:

[blue division]

Originally posted by Sirocco:

The argument seems to be that VG divisions couldn't have been any good because they were issued lavishly with SMG's, which weren't as accurate at range as rifles? :confused:

No, the argument was about the quality of VG.

Then it moved onto their equipment.

My point is, SMG's are basically automatic pistols. They are not really that suitable as a standard infantry weapon. Accuracy, range, ammo expenditure, safety as a standard issue weapon etc.

All of which point to issuing SMG's as a standard weapon for infantry right across the division as a bit of a 'make-do' bit of work.

[flamingknives]

Originally posted by blue division:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by flamingknives:

Oh yes, and the British army used the Sterling SMG up until 1982 at least.

I think the Sten was issued to primarily Territorial (National Guard) units and rear echelon troops.

Perhaps they didn't trust a part time soldier with a full rifle such as an FN/SLR? I suspect this was the case....

Was it also not known as the Sterling SMG by then?

A proper weapon - unlike the Sten that looks like it has been made out of spare bits of plumbing pipe. </font>

[John D Salt]

Originally posted by blue division:

I think you need to read some of the accounts about the use of the Sten - you could put a burst into the enemy at close range and they would keep coming at you.

I think you need to give a clear reference to at least one account that says this.

I think flamingknives is right.

Originally posted by blue division:

As for having a 9mm round fired at you at 200m or so I expect the rounds would tumble everywhere. They wouldn't be landing anywhere near you.

Regular readers will probably by now be tiring of my referring to WO 291/476, "Comparison of rifle, Bren and Sten", which reported trials comparing the aforementioned weapons at the Schhol of Infantry, Barnard Castle. According to the numbers in this report, it seems that the Sten fired automatic had a 90% zone of about five and a half feet at 300 yards, which I think is likely to be quite near you.

The report specifically states that "the average firer has a higher overall chance of hitting an enemy at 200 yards with a Sten than with a rifle."

It would also sting a bit if a Sten bullet hit you; at 300 yards it invariably went right through three-quarter inch pine boards covered by two thicknesses of webbing.

All the best,

John.

[John D Salt]

Originally posted by blue division:

Is this a modern SMG? They have improved a lot since 1944. To compare a modern weapon with one designed in the '30's is a bit misleading.

I'd be intrigued to know in what ways you believe SMG design has made giant strides in the last half century.

Compare the Bergmann MP18 and the L2A3 Sterling. Is the Sterling the better gun? Doubtless. Is it a colossal improvement? Not on your nelly.

Originally posted by blue division:

The firing mechanism is the problem. For example, the Sten used a heavy spring to reload the weapon.

Crude - but cheap to make (and simple to operate and maintain in the field).

Such a crude mechanism meant in practice was that the gun would be jumping violently in your hand when firing a burst. Of course, with training you can minimise this (correct stance etc). But we are back to the same old argument now...

All blowback weapons, by the very nature of blowback operation, rely on a relatively massive bolt, which can hardly avoid moving back and forth.

The training necessary to control the weapon is largely imparted with the advice "hold on tight".

All the best,

John.

[Sirocco]

Originally posted by blue division:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Sirocco:

The argument seems to be that VG divisions couldn't have been any good because they were issued lavishly with SMG's, which weren't as accurate at range as rifles? :confused:

No, the argument was about the quality of VG.

Then it moved onto their equipment.

My point is, SMG's are basically automatic pistols. They are not really that suitable as a standard infantry weapon. Accuracy, range, ammo expenditure, safety as a standard issue weapon etc.

All of which point to issuing SMG's as a standard weapon for infantry right across the division as a bit of a 'make-do' bit of work. </font>

[JasonC]

First he said they were helpless old men, then he said they were basically unarmed. Leaving as a greater mystery than ever how he explains their entirely successful actions against whole US armor divisions etc. The pet idea than SMGs suck is part of a cult of aimed full rifle fire only slightly less silly than the cult of the bayonet. He's an idiot, and we should stop wasting our time on him. He hasn't had a new argument in several pages now.

[flamingknives]

Hey, I've learnt a few things. The stuff that comes up to prove bd's daft propositions wrong is usually pretty good.

[Denwad]

I dunno but in Close Combat I do really well with Volksgrenadier forces vs tanks. esp vs Players, unorthodox tactics to lure a Sherman into a flamethrower, faust, shreck trap,

of course in CM they're much less effective because of the lack of effective range, however this can be overcome with use of LMGs and SMGs in the extreme, but IRL the lack of these probably compounded their effectiveness.

Of course, IRL the terrain probably affected their performance. What town was it where it was completely surrounded by open ground, and the only way the VG men had to get across was to charge not unlike the Russians sometimes did with their Penal battalions.

[blue division]

Originally posted by JasonC:

First he said they were helpless old men, then he said they were basically unarmed. Leaving as a greater mystery than ever how he explains their entirely successful actions against whole US armor divisions etc. The pet idea than SMGs suck is part of a cult of aimed full rifle fire only slightly less silly than the cult of the bayonet. He's an idiot, and we should stop wasting our time on him. He hasn't had a new argument in several pages now.

You lot finished?

What a load of rubbish - automatic pistols comparable to rifles.

Do any of you know that an SMG actually is, and what is is designed for?

Also, perhaps a history of Nazi Germany and it's situation in Winter 1944 may help you too.

A sten hitting a target 300m away (ha ha ROL)

As for being an idiot, perhaps you are talking about yourself? You do know that when we insult other people, we are often subconsciously talking about the parts of ourselves that we do not like? Where does that leave you?

[ March 31, 2005, 05:00 AM: Message edited by: blue division ]

[blue division]

Originally posted by flamingknives:

Hey, I've learnt a few things. The stuff that comes up to prove bd's daft propositions wrong is usually pretty good.

(sighs, flicks fluff off his sleeve)

[blue division]

Originally posted by Sirocco:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by blue division:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Sirocco:

The argument seems to be that VG divisions couldn't have been any good because they were issued lavishly with SMG's, which weren't as accurate at range as rifles? :confused:

No, the argument was about the quality of VG.

Then it moved onto their equipment.

My point is, SMG's are basically automatic pistols. They are not really that suitable as a standard infantry weapon. Accuracy, range, ammo expenditure, safety as a standard issue weapon etc.

All of which point to issuing SMG's as a standard weapon for infantry right across the division as a bit of a 'make-do' bit of work. </font>

[flamingknives]

WO 291/476 can be found here in the file regarding weapons effectiveness.

Although it does acknowledge the use of an improved backsight, the Sten does give a good showing at 300yds. And was shown to go clean through two 3/4" pine boards.

SMGs made in germany were probably quite high quality, compared to a Sten. The Sten is cheap and nasty weapon, and was designed that way. The MP40 was designed to be half decent.

And, if you're going to go into CQB, SMGs are proven to be a fair bit more useful.

[Sirocco]

Originally posted by blue division:

What other things can you come up with now?

The opposite to pure drivel.

You are Mr. Tittles, aren't you?

[JasonC]

The terrain between the Moselle and the Meurthe Rivers offered no natural obstacles to favor the defense; therefore, the few companies of the 553d VG Division and 15th Panzer Grenadier Division that had opposed the Americans along the Moselle fell back precipitately to the cover of the Forêt de Vitrimont, which borders the north bank of the Meurthe hard by Lunéville.

You mean, they didn't just fight in the open?

The 104th Panzer Grenadier Regiment had been pulled back at right angles to the 553d VG Division, which still held the Moselle north and south of Nancy...

You mean, the crack Panzergrenadiers from Italy were penetrated and their counterattack failed, but the green new VG still had their positions? But had to retreat when their flanks were turned.

The scattered units of the 553d VG Division continued their retreat in front of the 320th Infantry, and in the afternoon the 1st Battalion of the 320th crossed the canal in a sharp attack and deployed in defensive positions on the bluffs north of Dombasle and Sommerviller, closely supported by the 216th Field Artillery Battalion firing interdiction on the roads behind the canal. In the sector northwest of Rosières-aux-Salines the 137th Infantry met a stubborn German rear guard, and an attempted assault boat crossing over the Meurthe in the vicinity of St. Nicolas-du Port was checked by concentrated mortar and machine gun fire.

The VG have machineguns and mortars, it appears. And the silly buggers defend behind rivers and stuff.

But surely it was the German armor and their veteran supporters that were effective, right? I mean, things like this wouldn't happen to them -

Around noon a "Cub," flying observation for the division artillery, spotted a large German formation about a mile away from the 2d Battalion, which by this time was near the village of Chartreuse. The Germans, estimated to number at least 800 foot troops and some 16 tanks, were advancing in conventional attack formation, with a platoon of infantry accompanying each armored vehicle. Six battalions of American artillery opened very effective artillery fire, reinforced at closer range by the 105-mm. howitzers of the assault gun platoon, 737th Tank Battalion. This massed shelling broke the counterattack before it could reach the 2d Battalion lines. The coup de grâce was delivered by A Company, 737th Tank Battalion, and B Company, 654th Tank Destroyer Battalion, which closed with the German tanks and knocked out at least eight of them.

US logistic and firepower superiority at work. What did the Germans have that was working for them? Not tanks, tactics -

alternating sectors of high and low ground isolated the American detachments at outposts on road blocks and made them fair prey to attack in detail. German infantry were consistently able to win at least temporary success by attacking under the cover of darkness or fog, blinding the American outposts with flares, pinning them in position with automatic weapon fire, encircling and then sweeping over the position.

Task Force Sebree-now consisting of the 134th Infantry, the 737th Tank Battalion, some tank destroyers, and strong artillery detachments-opened the attack to drive the 553d VG Division from the plateau northeast of Nancy, the first large terrain barrier on the way to the 80th Division. This plateau was dominated by a high butte, the Pain de Sucre, which stood alone to the east and offered observation for four miles in each direction...The 1st Battalion, 134th Infantry, took the Pain de Sucre without much opposition on 18 September, but in the dark hours of the next morning elements of the 553d VG Division counterattacked from Agincourt, under cover of furious mortar and artillery fire. They drove the battalion off the hill, inflicting some 150 casualties and destroying most of its heavy weapons.

In daylight the Americans took it back - with P-47s, continual barrage by three field artillery battalions, tanks, and a battalion of infantry (leading two regiments ringing the height). But that was one hill, and there was another beyond -

A further advance to the north was denied by the enemy mortars and field guns on Amance Hill, whose fire interdicted the draw separating the plateau and the Bois de Faulx.

Oh, the VG have mortars and field guns. A wide open area between one hill and the woods at the base of the next, isn't safe to waltz across just because the line infantry on the enemy side of that area aren't rifle pattern infantry. Because leaving a hill that has observation for 4 miles in every direction, one is typically seen for 4 miles in the direction one is heading. Rifles don't fire 4 miles, but field guns do, as do heavy mortars. So they try to turn the position with an advance up a wooded draw. They get as far as a highway and then -

the leading troops emerged into the opening where the Nancy-Château-Salins highway cut through the woods. Here the advance was abruptly checked by fire from machine guns and 120-mm. mortars which the enemy had trained on the clearing.

Oh, open areas are contested by MGs (which the VG have) and registered artillery. Nope, can't just waltz across them even if the enemy doesn't have rifles.

Troops of the 120th Regiment of the 553d VG Division (reinforced by some training units) had been stationed in the northern sector of the Forêt de Champenoux on 17 September to cover the withdrawal of the rest of the division. With the characteristic zeal of well-trained German infantry, they had entrenched thoroughly, building a line of log-covered dugouts and foxholes ten or fifteen yards inside the forest. Within the shelter of the woods a few tanks and self-propelled 88's (sic) backed up the infantry and covered still more entrenchments. Heavy-caliber mortars were sited so as to lay a barrage on the clearing at the slightest movement from across the road. Through 20 and 21 September all the American attempts to secure a firm hold in the northern half of the forest were thrown back, determined though they were.

When arty fire didn't dislodge them (though it certainly hurt), the Americans decided to send CCB 4th armored around them. Not an inexperienced regiment, that. 4th Armored wrecked all the German armor in Lorraine. This little VG regiment now gets The Treatment -

First there was an ammo shortage American style, which happens like this

"The shells gave out just after a series of terrific concentrations by six battalions of American field artillery had literally blown to bits the German carrying parties as they moved through the woods and had pulverized the log-covered entrenchments. This pounding left the enemy weak and shaken, but still able to serve his weapons." Yeah six battalion shoots sometimes result in ammo shortages.

Next the armor "About 1015 the leading column brushed against Armaucourt, heavily occupied at this time by the enemy, and pushed on to the south, losing six tanks to enemy antitank guns. At noon the second column, numbering some 250 men (a light tank company, a platoon of tank destroyers, a platoon of armored engineers, and two sections of antiaircraft artillery), drove into Armaucourt behind an intense barrage laid down by the armored artillery of the combat command. Before the dazed Germans could recover, the little force was in the streets, firing at everything in sight. The Americans destroyed 162 vehicles, 310 of the enemy surrendered on the spot, and 182 were counted dead in the streets. The Germans who fled the town were engaged and cut up by the third column, which had circled north of Armaucourt".

Maneuver-ee enough to make a German proud, but the continuation is purely American "There was no fight left in the forest defenders and those who were able fled north along the road to Létricourt, where a narrow gap still existed. A squadron of P-47's flushed the last of the enemy off the Amance plateau; then more planes from the XIX TAC arrived to bomb and strafe the four-mile-long column of infantry, horses, vehicles, and guns moving painfully toward Leyr. When darkness came the 155-mm. guns and 240-mm. howitzers took over the job and shelled the road all through the night."

Somebody doesn't like the poor little 553rd VG. So it is toast, right? Never fights again, right?

"On 23 September the German commander, Colonel Erich Loehr, ordered a withdrawal calculated to bring his division west of Château-Salins. When word of this break in the First Army lines reached the army commander, he sent a formal reprimand to the 553d commander (Loehr subsequently was tried by court-martial)"

The line commander was right, the rear HQ was as usual being a complete ass. With this kind of force used and confusion and acrimony in the enemy camp, surely the pursuit against these broken conscripts was a triumphal procession, right?

Small groups of the enemy kept up a bitter delaying action, holding their ground wherever the hills or woods gave cover for mortars and automatic weapons, and filtering back into the American positions at night through the draws and gullies.

Geez don't they know they are helpless and unarmed?

After some heavy fighting-and heavy losses-the 317th pushed into the Bois de la Rumont. Here, on 21 September, two American battalions were cut off and had to be supplied by tanks.

Apparently not. In fact, they think they own the forests, and the night. Well then, give 'em what for, the treatment again, right? That is sure to crack them. Except the US infantry is worn ragged and bone tired -

"the 553d VG Division had turned back to the west, under strict and peremptory orders from the First Army commander, and was dug in to meet the Americans. The 2d Battalion, 317th Infantry, launched an assault to take Moivron, but, although supported by heavy artillery and fighter-bombers, and reinforced by fresh troops from the 6th Armored Division, the worn and decimated infantry could not take the town. Nor did the 318th attacks, which had been battering at Mount St. Jean, have any greater success."

The US 80th infantry division lost 2850 men in the month of September.

Manteuffel gets all the armor to smash the Americans and reach this silly 553rd VG, which doesn't seem to know that the whole US XII corps is chomping on them and they are supposed to be dead by now. But it is the German armor that gets smashed - the famous Arracourt battles.

Part of the force sent, though, is the 559th VG, brought down from Metz. After the big armor fight fails, it attacks the forest of Gramercy, held by the US - earlier first by CCB 4th armored, later the 35th Infantry division.

To make this attack Priess had available the 559th VG Division (Generalmajor Kurt Freiherr von Muehlen), the 106th Panzer Brigade-elements of which already had been used against CCB in the fight at Fresnes-and the 59th Regiment of the 19th VG Division.

Both of the infantry formations were new and relatively untried as units; both were somewhat under regulation strength. The 559th VG Division had a large number of veterans and, unlike many of the other VG divisions, most of its infantry came from the younger mobilization classes. The officers and noncoms were young and able veterans from the Eastern Front. The artillery regiment of the 559th was at average strength, with two light battalions and one medium. One company of tank destroyers replaced the conventional assault gun battalion as antitank defense.

My gosh, younger mobilization classes existed in the VG? Cadres were east front Vets? They had artillery? Hetzers in the divisional Panzerjaeger battalion?

The 2d Battalion of the 1127th Regiment (559th VG Division) led off in an attack down the Chambrey-Pettoncourt road which took the Americans completely by surprise. The German tanks and infantry wiped out a road block east of Pettoncourt manned by troops of the 1st Battalion, 137th Infantry, overran four antitank guns, and drove on into the village of Pettoncourt, where the main American supply route crossed the Seille River. At Pettoncourt a scratch force made up of a battery of light antiaircraft artillery, some pieces from the 219th Field Artillery Battalion, and an antitank platoon from the 137th Infantry brought the German attack to a halt, although the enemy grenadiers were close enough to bring the gunners under rifle fire.

Some VG have rifles?

At the northeastern edge of the forest the enemy filtered in from the Forêt de Château-Salins during the morning and at some points broke through the position of the 3d Battalion, 137th Infantry. This attack drove as far as the regimental reserve line, where a company from the 737th Tank Battalion and the 752d Field Artillery Battalion-firing its 155's at point-blank range-helped the 3d Battalion to retake most of the lost ground. During this fight the Germans attempted to reinforce their assault force in the forest, but the 35th Division brought four artillery battalions into action to interdict the clearing between the Forêt de Grémecey and the Forêt de Château-Salins, and few of the enemy got through.

Stopping them isn't a matter of noting the number of joules in a round from an M-1, it involved: 155mm howitzers firing over open sites, a reserve infantry battalion, a company of Shermans, and 4 battalions of field artillery. Must be green instead of conscript, wouldn't you say? But does it stop them?!

Early in the morning the Germans broke into the forest under cover of a barrage laid down by field guns and mortars. As the day progressed small detachments of tank-supported infantry worked their way to the rear of the 3d Battalion line, which had been reinforced on the right by the 1st Battalion of the 320th Infantry. The situation grew steadily worse and about 1500 the battalion of the 320th, hard pressed by the enemy who had circled around its left, started a withdrawal that carried it back about a thousand yards. (Elsewhere, a partial description of the German tactics - "The German attacks, launched by small assault detachments equipped with automatic pistols...")

Well that is a break in. What is the reaction?

the 737th Tank Battalion began a sortie to mop up the enemy who had pierced through the rear. This tank drive, reinforced by infantry from the divisional reserve and supported by tank destroyers from the 654th Tank Destroyer Battalion, was successful. Most of the lost ground was retaken and shortly after dark contact between the front-line companies had been restored.

A US infantry division always has a tank battalion and reserve infantry battalion(s) that push back. The Germans bring up some armor. That doesn't work, though, not against American firepower arms. It just attracts -

The 559th VG Division also struck at the western flank of the 35th Division during 28 September-with little success. In the early morning the 3d Battalion outposts of the 134th Infantry saw troops and tanks gathering for the attack in Jallaucourt, a village some thirteen hundred yards north of the forest. Before the Germans could do more than start their armored spearhead toward the wood line the American gunners were on the target and broke the attack. Then eleven American field artillery battalions sent the village up in flames with a TOT and the surviving enemy fled northeast.

So now, finally, these conscripts are through, right? Nope. They are still in the forest. They settle down and have dinner.

By nightfall Of 28 September, the position of the 134th Infantry was intact. The 137th Infantry had endured a day of confused and hard fighting, but had wiped out most of the Germans who had infiltrated to its rear and had reorganized and tied in the battalions in the forward positions. Nonetheless the enemy had finally succeeded in getting a foothold in this part of the forest. When the action waned the German and American foxhole lines lay hardly two hundred yards apart.

The Americans try to pre-empt the next round with a push of their own, to clear out the bits of the wood still containing Germans. But the bear blows back -

The 3d Battalion counterattack jumped off at H Hour. Thirty minutes later the 1st Battalion, 320th Infantry, and the 3d Battalion, 137th Infantry, joined in the fight and started a counterattack to clear the eastern edge of the woods. Both of the American counterattacks were checked as soon as they hit the German positions inside the forest. The enemy attack from Fresnes was delivered as promised, the movement of the German infantry and tanks cloaked by a dense morning fog that blotted out all but the sound of tank treads and wheels. Company L of the 137th, deployed in the small neck of woods jutting out from the northeastern corner of the Forêt de Grémecey, took the full force of the first assault but stood its ground until surrounded, then fought a way back to the battalion.

Inside the forest perimeter the fight turned into a confused succession of hand-to-hand battles fought independently by companies, platoons, and squads from the 137th, the 134th, and the 320th. As the day progressed the five American battalions slowly won the upper hand, while friendly artillery and the ubiquitous fighter-bombers isolated the forest battleground.

General Baade had visited seven of his battalion commanders. He found general agreement that the situation was tense, but not yet desperate. Each officer was of the opinion that the front was too wide and the American troops far too extended to prevent enemy infiltration. Furthermore, the woods were so dense, the trails so few, and the enemy knowledge of the forest so accurate that linear defense could hardly be successful. The only solution was to locate the infiltrating detachments and root them out of the woods.

They are slinking and stalking each other in a deep, hilly forest, the Germans actively infiltrating by at night, fog every morning. That is SMG country.

Then the Germans add one battalion of crack PzGdr to lead a regiment of VG. A tiny force spearheading conscripts against an entire division. What can tactics accomplish? They come at night with automatics; the main body follows with a barrage.

Before first light on 30 September the 115th Fuesilier Battalion, heavily armed with automatic weapons, struck the right flank of the 134th, where the 3d Battalion was deployed. The attack moved into the woods behind L Company and was pressed so stubbornly that the regimental reserve of the 134th had to be rushed into the fight. The 73d Regiment, which had assembled behind the 115th, followed up with an assault on a wider front, supported by continuous artillery and mortar fire. The fight inside the woods mounted in intensity as the day wore on and as more and more of the enemy infantry infiltrated on the right of the 134th.

The Americans counterattack with half the division -

Elements of the 137th Infantry and the two battalions of the 320th had begun a counterattack about 0630 to push back the enemy in the eastern portion of the woods. But the Germans had blasted trees across all the forest trails along which tanks might move; the American infantry, widely extended as the companies diminished in rifle strength, could neither move forward nor prevent the enemy from filtering in to the flanks and rear under concealment of the morning fog. German mortars and field guns kept up an incessant fire, and casualties from tree bursts mounted rapidly...inside the woods the 35th Division continued to lose ground, and by midafternoon both the 137th and the 134th were fighting with extensive gaps in their lines.

The corps commander orders a withdrawal, to give up the wood. Patton countermands it and sends two armored divisions around either side of it. At men who have already done all of the above, chopping up all they catch outside the woods.

So the rest just give up, right? I mean, somebody drove around them, they have been attacking one division for a week and now face three, 2 of them armored.

Within the Forêt de Grémecey the 35th Division had proceeded doggedly to win back its original positions. The enemy artillery kept up an intense and accurate fire as the Americans advanced; General Baade was wounded by a shell splinter. The German rear guard infantry, taking shelter in old entrenchments of World War I, fought savagely. By dark the 35th had reached the forest edge at several points. But elsewhere lone groups of enemy machine gunners and riflemen fought on through the night of 1-2 October to cover the main German withdrawal, while General Priess was organizing a new line of defense in the Forêt de Château-Salins

Anybody who thinks the VG didn't fight like the dickens hasn't the slightest idea what he is talking about.

But we knew that, didn't we?

[ March 31, 2005, 05:31 PM: Message edited by: JasonC ]

[Bigduke6]

Speaking of automatics, for those of you who have a cyrillic type face go here:

http://www.shooter.com.ua/Pyramyda/7_62_mm_pystole.html

to learn everything about the PPSh-41 machine pistiol that you ever wanted to know but were afraid to ask. If you don't have cyrillic the pictures are still pretty cool.

And for those of you that don't have cyrillic, here are some fun PPSh-41 facts:

1. The test model was fired 30,000 times before being put into production.

2. Bullet grouping was "satisfactory" at 200 meters.

3. Reliability testing included drying out the weapon out by cleaning it and then dousing it in kerosine to remove all lubricants, drying it again, and then firing it 5,000 times. All bullets fired normally, no jams.

Try that with yer M-16.

4. The weapon consisted of a total 87 parts, most cold-stamped. There were only two points on the weapon that used threaded screws. The parts requiring machining took a total of 5-6 lathe hours. The weapon was designed so that you could manufacture not just at an arms plant, but at a common machine-building plant, say that made sewing machines.

5. That cool-looking shell around the barrel helped reduce recoil and barrel climb, besides just dissapating heat.

6. Early versions of the weapon had sights out to 500 meters (50m. intervals). Later versons of the weapon were simplified: only 100m. and 200m.

7. Lots of German soldiers preferred the PPSh to the MP-40. (Don't get mad, I'm just passing stuff on here)

8. Cartridges included lead jacket, AP-incindiery, and tracer. Towards the end of the war the standard cartridge used unjacketed steel bullets (save on lead and copper) which "increased penetrating power".

As to Blue Division, ask him which Red Army Fronts it was Khruschev commanded.

[blue division]

Originally posted by Sirocco:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by blue division:

What other things can you come up with now?

The opposite to pure drivel.

You are Mr. Tittles, aren't you? </font>

[blue division]

Originally posted by Bigduke6:

As to Blue Division, ask him which Red Army Fronts it was Khruschev commanded.

Good to see you back, Big D.

[blue division]

Ho ho ho (ROFL)

An SMG firing to 200 metres in combat conditions.

Keep it coming men, I am wiping the tears from my eyes

[stikkypixie]

200m is a bit far, 10m is a bit short.

[Bert Hamoen]

JasonC, great account of these battles. Where did you find the information ? Are there books available ? Do you write them yourself ?

Any operations about this battle available in Combat Mission ?

Thanks in advance.

[blue division]

A bit more on those wonderful SMG's - this time from a German veteran :

We all had these Russian guns, still had the star on the metal. These guns were big and clumsy, about as much a precision instrument as a sledge hammer. But simple, just the type of thing you would want to issue to some dumb Ivan who needs training just to use a spoon.

A bit rough on the Red Army soldier, but gives you an idea of what he thought of the PPsh...

Oh, but of course - SMG's are the wonderful weapons of choice of WWII armies.