Jump to content

Carentan Part II


Recommended Posts

  • Replies 95
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

is there a way to encourage the AI to use smoke to covers its advance - 'cautious' perhaps?

The timing and windage may not be right but you can have the AI use up all of its smoke with a prep at the very beginning. You could buy some very big offmap stuff and have them do a smoke prep as well, but don't be surprised if a FOO calls them in for HE later on.

UCG that looks really really good, I'm trying to not recall the location of the enemy units in the pictures for when i play it, which I'm looking forward to. What wall mod is that?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The timing and windage may not be right but you can have the AI use up all of its smoke with a prep at the very beginning. You could buy some very big offmap stuff and have them do a smoke prep as well, but don't be surprised if a FOO calls them in for HE later on.

UCG that looks really really good, I'm trying to not recall the location of the enemy units in the pictures for when i play it, which I'm looking forward to. What wall mod is that?

crap - i didnt think of that - ill stop showing specific axis set up points (which can be changed btw)

its Aris' wall mod

where in the AI plans can i plan it a smoke bombardment?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

About the experience level settings. I would think based on the actual performance of both sides at this time, both should be regular or veteran. FJR 6 had only that Spring been reconstituted from remnants that served in Russia and Italy...leavened with veterans, for sure, but a majority were young recruits. (Coincidentally, I just started reading the "Lions of Carentan" last week, which is about that unit.)

Just my two cents.

and the Lions of Carentan is short on tactical maps

Let me know what you think of Lions of Carentan. I was a bit disappointed hoping for more detailed reports particularly regarding this battle - given the title I did not think that was unrealistic.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

crap - i didnt think of that - ill stop showing specific axis set up points (which can be changed btw)

its Aris' wall mod

where in the AI plans can i plan it a smoke bombardment?

under AI Support Target: (dropdown box) select smoke.

its occurs at the very beginning of a scenario. And you could use the enemy AI smoke as friendly smoke no one would know. Not sure what your intent is.

nobody is going to remember troop placement from those pics just kiddin ;)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

A bit disappointed, actually. I was hoping for more detail and more and better maps. I kept referring to this thread and other Internet sites when trying to follow the action! But at least they have a number of personal acounts which always makes for interesting reading.

Same feeling here, what I was not expecting and a more pleasant surprise was the details for post Normandy were a bit better. Still not one I would really recommend highly for folks bookshelves when one compares cost value. Sad cause I was really excited when I first saw it available for pre order.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

"Minutes into the scenario". Before 5:00 in, say, an hour scenario, means before 55:00 mins is showing on the game clock. There are some excellent threads on AI plans and orders...some good stuff just last week. It is tricky, and takes a bit to get your head around, since the before/after refers to when the AI unit will begin trying to get to the next map zone/execute orders. Takes a bit to get used to.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

P.S. I should add that once you do, it is really amazing what you can accomplish. After boning up last week, with the help of some veteran scenario-makers here, I spent the weekend re-acquainting myself with AI plans (instead of the ol' "paint a broad stripe across the map" school of AI planning), and have worked up a (so far) quite successful scenario of a delaying action by a depleted company of Landser against an American infantry battalion with armor support. It's 3 hours long, and so far the first hour is generally playing out as I scripted it, with plenty of surprises. I've found that the old adage "if you're thinking of pulling back, it's already too late" certainly is true!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

For understanding the battle of Carentan, we have to consider the tactical advantage and disadvantage that the grounds offered to the US attacker and the German defender, since the US could have become the defender and the German the attacker.

That was possible, because the Carentan causeway and the lock were the key to that tactical resolution.

Before June 1944 the RAF conducted many recon flights to observed the area and its possible complete flooding. The entrance and the exit of the salty water was controlled by huge wooden gates opening and closing following the tides cycles. The Germans opened the gates prior to June 1944, following an advice of Rommel. However they were not fully open., but the area was none the less rendered difficult to access without having to wade through it.

The US command realized that if the flood of the marshes was a perfect defence obstacle for the Germans against an attack from Utah, it could be also a defence against the Germans attacking from Carentan.

Therefore the lock became a priority objective on D-Day. The one who controlled it could drained the marshes or flood them entirely. The bridges on the causeway and the one of the railway embankment were to be blown. That way the Germans would not have been able to reinforce their troops caught on the St Come du Mont side, from Carentan.

When an engineer party made a recon about the feasibility to have troops using the causeway, it was decided to use it for crossing and attacking Carentan, while the troops coming from Omaha beach would attack it on from the south east.

The 502 PIR was therefore later ordered to attack with the 3rd and then 1st battalions through the causeway to reach its objective on Hill 30, while bypassing Carentan. That led to the causeway, farm and orchards battles raging from the 9th to the 11th June.

The 502 PIR being bled was unable to comply in taking Hill 30 and the 506 PIR took the task passing through the 502 PIR lines.

That battle was complicated since no written orders were made on either sides. The US AAR (first of its kind) was made by the history section on the 8th of July near Cherbourg for the first time in an orchard by S.C.A Marshall Col. GSC and upon the return of units in England.

Reconstruction of the battle was made with Colonel Cole, all surviving officers and men that were present at the time.

One might notice that the poplars along the causeway were hardly leafed at all and were too thin to provide cover. The causeway was in the line of fire of German automatic weapons located on its right side (going to Carentan) and having a perfect view from 20 feet above.

Bridge 2 had been blown and one gate out of the two initials remained on its south side. Bridge 4 still, on its south side, had the gates closed almost entirely and stuck. Only one man at a time could wriggle through that opening.

Better than words please find, here after some situation maps, a picture and a sketch of the causeway made at the time.

The causeway at the time

causewaysketch.jpg

3rd battalion advance in the evening of the 10th june

advance3rdbattalionevening10thjune.jpg

Col. Cole Initial G, H and HQ Companies 3rd Battalion attack on the early hours of the 11th June

initialattackjune11thmorning.jpg

3rd Battalion 502 PIR G, H, I and HQ companies emplacements and Germans locations on the farm side

emplacements10-11thjunecopie.jpg

3rd and 1st Battalions 502 PIR attack on the causeway and the farm

causewaybattle10-11june.jpg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Brilliant maps and advice again Snake_eye thankyou very much - ive got g, h and and the HQ company as the OOB for the Allies and this path looks eerily familiar to the AI's path so far - i have one problem im addressing which i wont mention lest it effect how others play the map - but it will be fixed!

mjkerner - have you a link to the recent AI discussion thanks

Link to comment
Share on other sites

http://www.battlefront.com/community/showthread.php?t=102567

Here's one. I'll try to find the others.

*Edit* George MC's info is good on this one:

http://www.battlefront.com/community/showthread.php?t=100225&highlight=exit+before

ucg: if you search for "exit before" and for "exit after" you'll get a number of threads about AI planning. The search function won't let you search just for "AI"---too few characters.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

About the A.I timing: :D

The way it is written in the manuals, starting with CMSF and the latter ones, is confusing.

As a matter of fact, reading it a second time made me understand the opposite of what I had read before! That was confirmed on some testing when the behaviour of the timing was not what you asked it to do.

I finally found that it seems that the timing starts from the beginning of the scenario clock. I thought earlier that the timing started at the beginning of the move of the unit. So I had to figure what time was necessary for the unit to get to the planned position and set accordingly the time I wanted it to get out of it. If the time figure was wrong the unit moved anyway.

The results were not what I had expected.

Going back to what gave the best results for me, that is considering that the timing started at the beginning of the scenario, I got better results. So I set it that way. That does not mean that I don’t make any changes in the time set up. It might be necessary, when the A.I troops encounter difficulties moving forward.

Another problem, I have found is the setting of the march order. That is fast, assault…….. I have found that fast give the best results. The assault order made me see the troops staying for a long time at their initial position and not even attempting to move. That resulted in a completely disorganized time schedule.

To be frank, I have to say that the A.I does not duplicate that kind of behaviour every time.

That is why, I have to test it, till I am satisfy with the results. If, I am not, I change the setting and eventually the A.I path, if that one is a no go.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

so exit after means 'dont move until this time is on the clock'

exit before means 'all try and be out of this area and heading to the next one by the time this number is on the clock'?

So if i want one group to run as fast as hell from the setup to the next zone, set 'dash' and exit before 01:00?

as an aside are these times cumulative or is the clock set to zero from the next action point? for example on order 8 (which imagine to be 45 mins into the scenario) will it be exit before 46:00, or will it still be exit before 01:00?

thanks for all the help - i thought building the map would be the hardest!! enjoying it all the same though

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I was previously doing it that way :

Exit before 6 minutes and after 8 minutes. That meant that the unit was trying to get out of the designated area before 6 minutes and at the most after 8 minutes.

Doing so I was only calculating the time necessary for the order, without taking in account the unrolling scenario time.

I have changed it giving it a time setting starting at the beginning of the game. If I order the A.I to get out after or before 12 minutes of the beginning I write it that way. However if the time lenght is shorter than it should be, the unit won't comply.

That means that if you want to move a unit 30 minutes after the beginning of the scenario and before 40 minutes you have to write it that way. The next order should take that time in account. That does not make that very comprehensible and allows numerous mistakes during the A.I time setting. That is why a testing of the timing is absolutely necessary

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I was previously doing it that way :

Exit before 6 minutes and after 8 minutes. That meant that the unit was trying to get out of the designated area before 6 minutes and at the most after 8 minutes.

Doing so I was only calculating the time necessary for the order, without taking in account the unrolling scenario time.

I have changed it giving it a time setting starting at the beginning of the game. If I order the A.I to get out after or before 12 minutes of the beginning I write it that way. However if the time lenght is shorter than it should be, the unit won't comply.

That means that if you want to move a unit 30 minutes after the beginning of the scenario and before 40 minutes you have to write it that way. The next order should take that time in account. That does not make that very comprehensible and allows numerous mistakes during the A.I time setting. That is why a testing of the timing is absolutely necessary

is there a way of removing the fog of war and watching the AIs moves? at the minute im resorting to spotting asap and then cease firing to see where everyone is

Link to comment
Share on other sites

so exit after means 'dont move until this time is on the clock'

Yes.

exit before means 'all try and be out of this area and heading to the next one by the time this number is on the clock'?

Yes.

So if i want one group to run as fast as hell from the setup to the next zone, set 'dash' and exit before 01:00?

Yes. Or just leave the default time.

as an aside are these times cumulative or is the clock set to zero from the next action point? , or will it still be exit before 01:00?

This:

for example on order 8 (which imagine to be 45 mins into the scenario) will it be exit before 46:00

(So here is how I read it to myself so that I don’t get confused… "exit after 45:00 [has elapsed since the start of the scenario], exit before 46:00 [has elapsed since the start of the scenario])

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You can set the scenario to "Scenario Author Mode" on the screen where you pick if you want to play WEGO or RT. Although it is probably obvious to everyone but me, you have to pick the side that is the enemy to the AI you are planning/want to watch. I spent over a half hour making changes/double-checking the before/after times, thinking I had screwed up as I was watching my AI side just sitting there, turn after turn after turn. I even rebooted twice. Then it dawned on me...I was trying to watch the American AI plans, but had picked the American side in the scenario!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You can set the scenario to "Scenario Author Mode" on the screen where you pick if you want to play WEGO or RT. Although it is probably obvious to everyone but me, you have to pick the side that is the enemy to the AI you are planning/want to watch. I spent over a half hour making changes/double-checking the before/after times, thinking I had screwed up as I was watching my AI side just sitting there, turn after turn after turn. I even rebooted twice. Then it dawned on me...I was trying to watch the American AI plans, but had picked the American side in the scenario!

lmao - thats brilliant - great, never knew there was this feature - ill get twiddling and tweaking my evil plans!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

is there a way of removing the fog of war and watching the AIs moves? at the minute im resorting to spotting asap and then cease firing to see where everyone is

Yes, in the select game options, skill choice : Iron, elite.... choose Scenario author test

Well that makes two good answer ! I had not seen Mjkerner one. Should put my glasses on !

Link to comment
Share on other sites

great bunch of guys - thanks for all help so far - tried the new timings last night -certainly solved the problem i was having (which was getting across bridge 4 asap) - i find 'leave after' to be the one the troops respond to more but we'll see

if order 1 is leave after 5

and order 2 is leave after 15

and order 3 is leave after 25

if order 1 gets stuck with hidden troops and unexpected surprises and the fight lasts til 23 minutes will the troops skip 2 and head straight to 3?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Unfortunately, your content contains terms that we do not allow. Please edit your content to remove the highlighted words below.
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...