VladimirTarasov

Agree'd however it's not just as simple as that. You don't just find commanders like Motorola which is "celebrity" level among not only Donbas but abroad. Killing Motorola just for a mission they assigned his unit on in LPR territory is not justifiable by any means. Let's look at it this way my belief of what happened which could be totally wrong since there is not a shred of evidence other than speculation. Ukrainian special forces over the last few months have attempted assassinations on Motorola, one being a car bomb, another being around his apartment complex. These tasks failed, and it doesn't even have to be Uber spec ops from the SBU. What is gained out of this you say? Well firstly, Ukraine has denied any hand in this. In doing so, if the DPR/LPR retaliate they will be demonized and will destroy Minsk 2. You just got rid of a competent commander with experience from the 90s to the Donbas war. A man which was respected among all ranks. Ukrainian services in killing him hits 3 birds with one stone. The first bird they hit is the commander which is responsible for losses in quite a few places in the fronts, the second bird being hit is dropping morale of the armies (or thugs in your case) because they aren't able to respond back, and they've lost one of their idols so to speak. The third bird obviously is in denying the operation and blaming it on internal feuds, you've now caused paranoia amongst the military. Not as if Ukraine is going to play by rational rules, the task to kill him was probably assigned a while ago since there were two other attempts on his life. Someone in the Ukraine's command probably held a grudge against him, it doesn't even have to be as complex as I made it out to be, but avenging Ukrainian troops by killing him. 22nd of September they were deployed to stop the coup since they are a specialized battalion (Special forces so to speak) then I believe for two days remained in LPR borders with orders from the top.

Okay I'm not even going to... You are the one who believes that the millions of Russians in the other parts of Ukraine had even 1% a say in what happened in Kiev. I'll tell you what anyone who has been to Donbas will notice how much hatred people have against the Ukrainian army, and the Kiev government. But anyways we'll just stick to the good ole Russia started the Ukrainian crisis. Thugs, murders, bandits, rapists. Don't forget the 100% Russian army that somehow was able to get people's support but is tyranical and oppressing the Donbas people in the region. Not really. Luhansk is having issues the DPR isn't facing, that's the thing I'm getting at. Nothing more. Oh yes there was an eyewitness? Listen, there have been evidence of DPR/LPR units killing Ukrainian POWs. It's true and if I denied it, I would be lying. However, there is no dirt on Motorola other than him on a phone call yelling that he's killed 15 POWs. What's more interesting is the amount of warcrimes the ATO troops coming from the western side of the border committing, anyways that's irrelevant in regards to Motorola. But let's not hold double standards. Absolutely, this fits exactly well into a good strategy. Kill Motorola, start the "he's been betrayed" propaganda to weaken the cause. I have no concrete evidence other than no one in the DPR is likely to kill him. And certainly Moscow isn't, and there are many small details that lead me to this conclusion which I've stated. The only credible argument I give to you is the Russian force in Donbas. I'm not desperate at all, anyone with a heart can see what's happened in Ukraine. But of course, because Russia annexed Crimea, supported a legitimate rebellion in Donbas, every point I will bring up against Ukraine you will try to belittle. Let's ignore all the warcrimes the Ukrainian government has committed, let's ignore the MAJOR FACT that Russians who have been living in Ukraine since the start have been denied their basic rights. Don't revolutions happen because of this? I don't know through out history? As a Ukrainian he was disgusted that HE and his neighbors and family members did not get a say when their legitimate government was ousted, a government they supported. But you know what, sure Putin has started all that too. It's possible, but that one does not even give us any clue what so ever to point fingers at. Not like Ukraine can't conduct assassinations in Russia it's not impossible but that's beside the point. There's no evidence that UAF killed him, but it's way more likely they did than Russia. So of course, I'll have to assume he was assassinated by the army he's directly fought and enraged. Individual cases that cannot be comparable. War criminals that have been verified deserve to rot in hell, however if we're going by a phone call to judge what someone did (especially the context in which it happened in an angry call probably pissed off at the accusations)

Only thing I was partially wrong on was the amount of Russian troops and the roles they played in Ukraine, I never denied advisory and training. That's very bad to assume. Ukraine has a very capable special force. They can conduct sabotage, assassinations, ect. ect. You know the super secret stuff. Why for? His unit was specially called to halt the coup he didn't go there on his own decision. LPR is proving to be less ideal than DPR, and it is acknowledged. But you're wrong if you think that a LPR unit on its own is going to send some super death squad to kill him when Motorola was a living legend in the DPR. The only thing you have to go on about him being a war criminal is him boasting about killing 15 prisoners in an angry call to all the false accusations Kyiv Post rambles about him murdering poor Ukrainian conscripts. Furthermore, before they finally killed him, he had 2 other attempts on his life. One around his apartment again. And Pavlov by the way is not stupid enough to risk his wife and kids in Donetsk if he knew some crazed nutty commander was after him, after these two events. This theory serves no purpose considering how loyal and how effective Pavlov was. He had no ties in politics, never ran for politics, never made public statements about politics. No one in Moscow would want his head... That's just an outrageous claim. Sounds Kyiv postish. Givi has been recorded abusing prisoners which is a war crime but let's face it, he's a local he's served in the Ukrainian Armed Forces, after what the ATO has done to his region I'm sure I'd be just as angry. But of course two wrongs doesn't make a right. But that's hardly a serious war crime, no documentation of him killing any POW. It's not impossible at all, don't think Ukraine's special forces isn't capable. They are dangerous as well. This is a very obvious Ukrainian assassination operation... Motorola has gave Ukraine trouble in the front many times. And considering there were 2 other attempts on his life in the last few months, this last one worked. If it was Moscow wanting his head he'd be dead on the first attempt. Correct, but seeing that thousands (50,000) of people went to his funeral he's not considered a stranger. Unless the Russian Imperial Army forces people to funerals

@HerrTom If you mean unit markings all different units have their own markings. Other then that I haven't really payed much attention to it to be able to give you solid info

Ignore the revenge stuff (skip to 5:40) Lt-Col Mikhail "Givi" notes in this interview that his security including Motorola's that they don't have great security, mostly a vehicle of volunteers for security. In fact in multiple cases Givi and Motorola have had attempted assassinations on them. These officers don't ride around with heavy security say a real Russian army or US army LT-Col would be with. Plus if it was another Donbas commander he wouldn't be able to keep the lid on it like this. I'm only assuming Ukraine did it because many DPR/LPR commanders recently especially Givi and Motorola have had attempts on their lives, and most of the evidence posts to Ukrainian ops. I'll elaborate further if you'd like. It's war and it's not horrific that stuff like this happens However if it is Ukrainian ops it is clearly in violation of the Minsk 2, but tell me what isn't. You have artillery duels plus company sized battles ranging on the front.

Level out those high floors ATGMs are quite savage

He had kids and a wife from Donbas, anyways that besides the point. Ukrainian spec ops is more than capable enough to pull a mission like this in Donbas. I was looking at Motorola's security detail and it's nothing advanced... Probably Ukrainian operators at night installed the explosive in the lift, as he went up the lift, hit the detonator and killed him. I'm convinced that this was a Ukrainian operation.

In fighting in Donbas isn't unheard of I didn't dismiss it either. Some internal feuds between commanders happen, I'm not sure if Moscow has sent green men to put things in check. But Pavlov's case is a bit different IMO, he was a living hero and he didn't have enemies so to speak in Donbas. It is also possible the Ukrainian government wanted revenge and wanted to demoralize troops at the loss of such commander. Either way no one can be blamed and it'll be impossible to figure it out. It is very fishy on who did it who didn't. Ukraine has great special forces units they could pull off such infiltration, not like Pavlov and various other commanders have a Godly defense detail. But as you've said it could have been a commander who maybe had problems with him or didn't like him.

@kinophile in regards to Arseniy Pavlov's death it is likely Ukrainian operation. Arseniy never was involved in politics in Donbas for anyone to directly hate him. Many of my friends (not that it matters LOL!) and even some guys in Donbas (on the net ofcourse) speculate it was a Ukrainian operation however without any full evidence I'm not sure counter assassination operations will ensue. Pavlov is hated by the Ukrainians; in one of his phone call interview with KyivPost he said he killed 15 PoWs (it's not true no evidence most likely boasted because he hates the opposition's media) which basically put hatred against him, plus his battalion has killed many Ukrainian soldiers. I'm not sure if Ukraine did it or if it was internal feud but I don't think we'll find out who did it. In either case, I think the war will probably escalate sooner or later.

Roger that Dang, should have told me that a few hours ago.

@JUAN DEAG http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=d0e_1476032769 never mind it wasn't shot down rebels got their hands on it because it landed on their territory or whatever. Anyways guys I'm playing a PBEM and had a 105mm from the MGS totally bust my frontal turret on my T-72B3 probably around 800 meters or more away. Did I get unlucky or is the 105 actually capable of taking out B3s from the front turret?

John Kettler without going further into it, I think we should just leave it be so the thread doesn't get locked. Interesting links however.

Well I'll respect kinos request and do the forum a favor but no Ukraine and Syria are not comparable at all. I wrote a long response but let's be honest here no one's changing their mind. You know what I'll just respond. 1. Syria has many factions of foreigners and Syrians mixed influenced and supported by foreign powers... In Donbas there is one unified army with a people's cause. 2. Donbas rebels do not go around beheading you for supporting Assad or in this case Poroshenko. So no absolutely not comparable intensity and plot wise.

It was recently I'll send the link later on today.

Poor civvies! I'm sure Russia targeted the population because they are innocent! Which is not the case. Russia has not signed the treaty where cluster bombing is not permitted same as the U.S. And obviously terrorist locations were targeted in this video and it was not a random strike. But of course you will ignore two very important facts. First being that "rebels" hold the city as hostage, and inevitably when they are targeted for the low light Jihadi scum they are it is likely to result in collateral damage. Second being that the so called freedom fighters also shell the government held part of Aleppo which has a very high population compared to the Eastern Aleppo region. So instead of crying about Russian bombs falling on viable Jihadi targets let's look at some facts. I'm not bringing up Coalition collateral damage which was way higher in Iraq. So please stop this nonsense. http://www.cbsnews.com/news/syria-rebels-behind-alleged-massacre-of-shiites/ https://www.rt.com/news/362612-rt-exclusive-shelling-aleppo/

Well I can tell you that in Syria and Ukraine there has been drones that have been engaged at by small arms, recently Separatists shot down a Raven over the contact line in Donbas (not by small arm fire) It all depends on many factors. Me personally I don't think it's easy at all shooting at those micro UAVs. And cases where they are shot down by small arms are pretty rare. Crew served weapons like .50s on tripod mounts or any stabilized mount could have a chance (if they are able to visually see it, and permitted to hit it) The thing is UAVs like those do not usually fly predictable paths so even trying to hit them with small arms is not likely to work.

Um no... Just no.

What a mess lol....

You really try my limits with your wording.

This design is beyond the Armata, I'm quite worried about this new death machine Lol!!!

Is it still in the design phase?

Sometimes Rus equipment does falter more often than I expect but I don't think it's deliberate. The Ukrainians face some issues in war fighting as well, big factor being spotting issues. But of course I'm not qualified to tell you whether it's in-accurate modelling or just literally bad luck.

Hehe this guy here is a good commander. I'm not saying it's a bug or anything, the armor spalled but I'll just assume the Era probably was quite effective. Anyways, I wasn't complaining my opponent is competent.

Steve please do not lock the thread because of this, it's been strong for 66 pages. Guys I'm enjoying the military arguments we had on here, so please let's get back on topic. I'd like to bring us back on topic by talking about how the Russian army is under equipped in terms of luck... Playing a PBEM and had a Bulat laugh at my T-72B3 and by laugh I mean ate my shell and blew my tank to pieces, surely the Russian army is under equipped in game luck wise?

Iskanders have a wide variety of ways to avoid being hit or even detected by enemy radar, it employs jammers, decoys, and it maneuvers to avoid being hit. I'd assume it is very hard to hit, but I'm sure it's not impossible. If memory serves me correctly they have a 800KG warhead, and 5 meter CEP.