VladimirTarasov
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Posts posted by VladimirTarasov
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17 hours ago, Battlefront.com said:
Of course. No disagreement here at all. The question is out of 100 situations where BMP-3s dismount their infantry in a hot combat situation, how frequently would this happen? Under what specific circumstances? What limitations? For example, would the Squad only go a few meters out of sight of their BMP-3, or could they range for 100m+ distance?
Again, the theory is not in question. It's the application to CM's simulated battlefield that is at issue.
There could be alot of applications depending on the scenario. And there have been a lot of times where I myself if I were in those situations would stay mounted in the commander seat while the rest of the inf do their thing. But of course, if there are coding limitations there isn't much to do about it
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4 hours ago, HerrTom said:
@VladimirTarasov, correct me if I'm wrong, but Russian mechanised infantry generally fight in close coordination with the IFV, right? It's essentially a big heavy member of the squad and generally stays relatively close. At least, that's how I recall the Soviet Army operating.
Absolutely, IFV and infantry are always near each other. My squad is pinned down in the building? "Ivan, blast that building to shreds" it's key to operate togerther with these vehicles. It's also good that they are heavily armed with 30mm cannons. That's why BTR-82As have 30mm cannons, now instead of being a troop transport armed with a mediumish cannon, it now can function as a IFV of sort.
Also it adds direct firepower support to our forces, if I'm advancing say from a treeline to open field to urban environments, I can have my BMD/BMP just shred points where I can take fire from. And again, Russian tactics do depend on heavy firepower.
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Busy week finally back on the forum some interesting stuff happened lately
In regards to the commander seat in the BMPs, it is more than plausible for the Squad Leader to stay in the vehicle when operating. A scenario for example; the squad leader orders the dismounts to take control of a building while in close fire support the commander stays in the vehicle. A split commander option would be nice because even when doctrine doesn't call for there to be a permanent commander, at times the Squad Leader is more than capable enough depending on the given situation to stay in the commander's seat.
I was operating in a BMD unit and situational awareness through the commander seat was horrible(driver could see better than me). However on BMPs (speaking specifically about the BMP-2) the commander can opt to stay in and it would offer advantages to the squad+IFV effectiveness. But of course, if he must dismount and lead his squad through a situation he can choose to do so.
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1 hour ago, panzersaurkrautwerfer said:
WELL WHAT ABOUT MAGIC SPACE PIXIES SHOOTING DOWN MH-17?
True probably that happened.
1 hour ago, panzersaurkrautwerfer said:I'm of the "or not" realm simply because there's enough people who know how to use the system that would be less embarrassing to lose in the Ukraine if something went sideways.
Which is what I was getting to if the most likely case of militias downing it is what happened. Thanks for agreeing for once geez.
1 hour ago, panzersaurkrautwerfer said:If Syria had targets worth taking out a block of apartments, I wouldn't object as much. It's the whole strategic bombing calculus, if this factory is offline for a week, that's 60 less tanks, which means less causalities, which means shorter war, which offset the smoking hole that used to be Franz Huttengutter High School or something. But there aren't those sorts of targets in Aleppo. There's nothing that needs, or merits just dumping cluster bombs into a housing complex.
There are targets such as that in Syria, rebels don't actually build buildings to place their ammunition, command points, "barracks" into. They use the local housing. The rebels don't have any army of tanks, but they still have a large armor pool compared to other "insurgent" type forces. But these guys fight more of like a barbaric army, where they lack in airpower they make up with it using suicide bombs, VBIEDs are their favorite tool as noted in Aleppo. Anyways bottom line I agree that clusterbombing an apartment block is reckless and very stupid.
1 hour ago, panzersaurkrautwerfer said:Again, let's place the shoe on the other foot and make it Ukrainians dropping bombs on separatists. Does Russia have any right at all to object?
Ukrainians have used heavy handed operations not similar to the casualties in Syria of course, but similar. I can't blame Ukraine's government for heavy handedness in targeting the rebels but the case in Donbas is very very different. We can all agree that the rebels in Syria sponsored by Putin the dictator and evil man himself, their goal was strictly the pro-Russian region which has local support. In essence the rebels are not throwing the jeopardy of the whole nation state into the trash, but fighting for a local goal.
@Steve I'm going to write to you tomorrow because it's high passed my time for sleep
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21 minutes ago, Codename Duchess said:
A transponder is like a special radio code that serves as an ID on radar screen. I don't know the specifics, I do know that someone tells me to put 4 numbers into my control panel and I obey. Technology Review sat down with two experts on both electronic warfare and SAM systems. Important quote below, emphasis my own:
Thanks for that information, but there are many other ways on determining if it was a civilian airliner or not if it was a Russian unit. Obviously a plane headed directly towards the Russian border at high speed and altitude indicates that this was either a rookie mistake, ill-equipped. Or on purpose.
something a local militia unit could do lacking, the long period of training and constant guidance from Russian command, plus this system would need permission before engaging it, indicating this is either a under-equipped militia unit, or it was deliberately shot down by Russia with permission from the top, or as some other theories put it Ukraine did it to grab support.
Without knowing everything using common knowledge we can take the main confirmed evidence that points the barrel at who could have done it. (pointing at the militia) they shot it down probably assuming it was Ukrainian recon or something. But what makes me very more uncomfortable about this whole situation is how Kiev tower let this plane fly over a region where dozens of planes have been shot down. I'm not trying to justify what happened in anyway, but this is the blunt of it IMO.
No Russian BUK unit even if separately attached to a unit (God knows why) would dare hit that plane without radio into command. Command will then verify it, and then launch will be permitted considering this plane was flying at commercial liner altitude and at commercial liner speed. It just doesn't add up to me unless the Russian command actually allowed it to be hit or UAF. All this reminds me of a incident in the pass flight 1812, not that it's relevant. Guess since it happened in Ukraine as well.
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Not only that, militia's captured BUK system from Ukrainians... considering the local militia had alot of ex military from Ukraine. Anyways bottom line is it's not fact that Russian military shot it down, but it is more likely for the Militia to shoot it down on accident. Which doesn't really justify anything... Probably IF militia shot it down they didn't admit to it because of the huge amount of pressure they were already facing from the international stage for opposing the government I think they approved of (or did they not? can't remember)
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9 minutes ago, sburke said:
Would that be the same punishment they gave to the BUK operator that shot down MH 17?
There is no evidence that a Russian unit shot down this plane. If it was a militia unit, that's with them. Do we really have to go into detail for that one? Russia can identify a civilian airliner using BUKs, if you imply Russian army shot it down on purpose, then that makes no sense either. As I've said before there's three things that could have happened.
1. The Russian army knowingly shot down the airliner (no evidence of this one)
2. Militia shot it down accidentally (the tweet about hitting a military aircraft around the time of the shooting)
3. Ukraine hit it for the support of the international community (Kiev tower telling the plane to go to a lower altitude and allowing it to fly over the zone)
now to me the second one is the one that happened and I wouldn't buy the other theories unless something else shows up. So let's not bring about a case that's already a cluster of messed up. Russian government initially claimed it was a SU-25 (embarrassing claim) Ukraine claimed the Russian military shot it down (BS as well, the radars deployed with these units easily can tell it was an airliner) for the time being it was most likely a under equipped militia unit responsible.
9 minutes ago, Codename Duchess said:Human Rights watch documented 47 incidents between May 27 and July 27, 2016. These are backed up by witnesses, photo and video. I implore you to check out the table below
I know about the incendiary weapons being used and the other cluster munitions, sadly I see collateral damage from these weapons have happened. Definitely not proud of that, but even with these wrongs I'm still very inclined to support the government forces rather than the other rebel groups, due to many other reasons that aren't indiscriminate like child beheading, forcing religion, general radicalism, and savagery. Where as, I understand these cluster munitions lead to excessive deaths they are not purposely used to hit civilians, very reckless however... No argument there.
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6 hours ago, Wicky said:
Odd then don't you think that that pic you provided from a barely disguised Russian propaganda website as evidence of practices of terrorists in Syria is from a video circa 2014 when "Hamas Terrorists Fire Rockets from a Gazan School Use Children as Human Shields". Putinbot fail that one ;-)
Thanks for pointing that out. Lowers their credibility to almost zero. Sorry for that guys, I could have swore I seen that video earlier in the title for Aleppo too... Dumb internet. And I'm not a putinbot. I'm a propaganda specialist I get payed hourly potato bags to defend Russia on the CMBS forum. Anyways since that is debunked I give my apologies, but still, obviously rebels still have positions built in these urban environments which causes heavy collateral damage because of that.
16 hours ago, panzersaurkrautwerfer said:It's stupidly reckless. It's not even like dropping that weapon in an urban area was ever not going to do a lot of harm, which is crossing the line between collateral damage (somewhere in that explosion was a target worthy of destruction in spite of risk to civilians), into willfully killing civilians.
I agree that was reckless and hopefully it was the only such case, the other clustermunition videos I've seen were generally open terrain and targeting valid targets. Russian military overall has harsh punishments for mistakes like these.
3 hours ago, Machor said:Sorry but Assad's use of chemical weapons is a confirmed fact: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Use_of_chemical_weapons_in_the_Syrian_civil_war
No actual confirmation other than reports, but it appears that the Government side has used gas but so have the rebels. https://www.almasdarnews.com/article/aleppo-update-rebels-use-poisonous-gas-battles-intensify/
3 hours ago, Codename Duchess said:Because it's 2016, almost 2017 and Russia is a modern country with modern munitions. Society at large needs to be held accountable, not just the US.
We do use modern munitions, but as I've said mostly SVP-24s on dumb bombs, but I've and you've pointed out it has a 20 meter CEP at high altitude, not good if you want to hit a command post next to a apartment block.
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13 minutes ago, panzermartin said:
I dig the techincal details but do you think there is any point in this "my bombs are more humane than yours" discussion in this war of anihilation? I think even precision weapons would have a hard time to hit anything here. I'm amazed how even some of the bombs hit their target. Its like Stalingrad only more packed.
Precision weapons are still going to kill civilians, but the video duchess shared is overkill, and most likely resulted in collateral damage that could have been avoided if cluster munitions weren't used for that mission. I'm not sure if you know, but in S Aleppo there are 1070 apartment projects where it's total rebel control no civilians, where bombs like these could be used without worrying about any collateral damage but I'm not sure if that was the case in the video Duchess shared.
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12 minutes ago, Codename Duchess said:
Dude that's like apartment buildings spread over 2-3 blocks in a bigass city. Nevermind that cluster bombs suck against hard targets like buildings, what in the actual ****.That's definitely not a justified case, can you get me a confirmation whether or not that was Syrian or Russian? If so definitely a case to bring up. I know rebels can be spread among large areas, but this is not one I'd be proud of. A f*** up on the Syrian or Russian government's side. Is there an aftermath picture/video where we can assess what was targeted?
Edit: Nvm looks like a SU-30, Russian jet.
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1 minute ago, Codename Duchess said:
although last I saw you were claiming 5m CEP
For low altitudes it can achieve 5-10 meter CEPs is what I read from some analysis, but for high altitudes this number is not true and it gets more bigger. And thanks for your input cool to hear it from an actual pilot.
3 minutes ago, Codename Duchess said:That's simply unacceptable for urban anti-terorrist warfare
If this was the medium-low intensity warfare like insurgency the US faced in Afghanistan then I would agree with your point. But these guys fight in actual conventional formations, and have army grade equipment in alot of cases.
6 minutes ago, Codename Duchess said:As for munitions, cluster bombs were designed for conventional war which this is not. There's a reason why the US has stopped using them, and nowadays we have things like the BLU-129 carbon fiber bomb that doesn't have fragments specifically for these kind of situations. Flip on RT for some strike footage and you'll see.....something else.
I know what you're talking about, I seen the footage. But we need to study the case in detail, if RuAF has deliberately dropped a clusterbomb just to hit a few trenches then that is totally not justified and must be brought forth into the UN.
10 minutes ago, Codename Duchess said:As for your mortar example, while I won't say that 100% of the time we wouldn't drop a precision weapon on it (because horrible mistakes have been made), you'd bet your ass that we would avoid it at all costs. I'm not so sure that the RuAF** would have that reservation and I know for sure that the Syrian Air Force wouldn't.
Considering many factors that could take place, that doesn't justify the rebels side one bit. More so it shows you how embedded they are within the populace, even with their high intensity warfare formations.
12 minutes ago, Codename Duchess said:**What's the official name these days?
Russian Aerospace Forces
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6 minutes ago, Wicky said:
Interesting that Southfront that touts itself as :
"a public analytical project maintained by an independent team of experts from the four corners of the Earth focusing on international relations issues and crises and working through a number of media platforms with a special emphasis on social networks. We focus on analysis and intelligence of the ongoing crises and the biggest stories from around the world.
Happens to be based in Moscow > https://whois.domaintools.com/southfront.org
Mmmmm.... Putin Bot central?
I don't care if it was in Pyonyang, it provides evidence in that link I shared.
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47 minutes ago, panzersaurkrautwerfer said:
Look. ISIS/Syrian rebels aren't setting up barracks, motorpools, or large targets for the most part (well, except for ISIS, but they're less of a factor). Generally you're talking about fairly small numbers of people with infantry weapons. In a vacuum, like Afghanistan where it's just another rocky hole dropping a 500 lbs bomb on three guys makes sense, especially if you're dealing with something like a mortar team that'll be gone in sixty seconds.
https://www.almasdarnews.com/article/kurdish-ypg-storms-islamist-rebel-positions-aleppo-city/
It's not uncommon to have ammunition loads like these stored in urban environments with civilians still around in the area. This is just ammunition depot, you can do further research and see command points. Their numbers are anything but small, and in most cases they have IFVs, and tanks captured from the regime in support. Just like in the recent offensive in SW Aleppo where ATGMs took out a dozen or so armor that belonged to the rebels in their new offensive. Those guys have conventional power as well, it's not just infantry.
47 minutes ago, panzersaurkrautwerfer said:And I'd contend it's not. Aleppo in terms of enemy is pretty much down into the hundreds of insurgents at best. It's not something that merits the kind of massive bombardment that is ongoing, and it's debatable what there is left to reasonably destroy with the sort of force being applied. The only thing that really makes sense is if someone is using Aleppo as an example just like Hama was oh wait we've been down this road before.
Bombardment in East Aleppo has ceased for 11 days now on the part of the RuAF, to allow civilians to pass through corridors, and just a general humanitarian pause. Anyways the rebel force in East Aleppo is anything but a few hundred, Syrian intelligence estimates atleast 2K. Plus they have been conscripting the local populace as well, usually forcefully. If the rebel numbers in East Aleppo were a few hundred, the 10-15K SAA force in and around Aleppo would be pushing through it with relative ease. What should bother you more than Russian and Syrian bombs accidentally hitting civilian positions while targeting militants should be this:
https://southfront.org/syrian-moderate-rebels-use-children-as-human-shield-for-mortar-emplacement/
literally children 10 meters away from the mortar piece.... What kind of results were you waiting for? I'm deeply sorry for the civilian population, but everyone knows that these radical groups must be eradicated. In this case, if Russia used a KH-25SM precision missile those children would be dead anyways. Let alone that, if a drone lazed the mortar sight and precision artillery was called in those kids were dead. I understand where you are coming from, but we can't just pretend Russia and Syria are at blame for these casualties, if the rebels aren't allowing these people into the safe zones the government offers.
47 minutes ago, panzersaurkrautwerfer said:The way the Iraqi Body Count does numbers is it attributes virtually everyone killed in the initial invasion to Coalition forces. It doesn't separate them into deaths caused by Iraqi armed forces under Saddam, (indeed, did you see a tick mark for them?) and it includes reporting as done by the old Iraqi government which was the same one claiming the US Army was cut off and about to surrender in downtown Baghdad/DU was giving all babies in Iraq cancer, and the British have dropped in murderous badgers to keep farmers away from watering holes for livestock (both the cancer and badger claims are real ones that Iraqi government made)
Could be they changed reporting criteria, but that's one of the issues I seem to recall about the 2003 numbers.Oh no of course Iraqis made some really dumb claims, but the website's options seems to show one for US coalition ONLY from 2003. Anyways I wasn't comparing anything other than the fact that even with superior equipment, precision, prowess, training. Collateral damage happened. And I was only saying that to give you an idea on why there is so much collateral damage on the government's side. Since the best airplanes they had until Russian intervention were SU-24s from the 80s.
47 minutes ago, panzersaurkrautwerfer said:Look, our resident fighter pilot didn't buy off on your claims of accuracy. There's really no reason for the US CCIP to be more, or less accurate than the Russian version (it's fairly basic what it's doing).
I agree, SVP-24 has GPS, and all the other calculations for bombs, the pilot just sets the coordinates and flies through to the determined way-points, and it releases automatically (no human error) based on those calculations. At 5-6 kilometer altitude these bombs have 10-20 meter CEPs, not precision by any standards of course, but still accurate to hit strongholds, and formations.
47 minutes ago, panzersaurkrautwerfer said:Finally I heard about the counter offensive Friday on yankee imperialist news sources. It was not favorably discussed
Yeah, rebels succeeded in advancing through into a Christian district Al-Assad I believe, and today their whole offensive collapsed with the Syrian army already controlling 30% of the district again. I see one thing the rebels have is they don't fear death, and that get's them far in their offensives because they can keep the initiative even with heavy casualties.
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10 minutes ago, Machor said:
For much of the Cold War, Syria had de facto control over the Beqaa Valley, which was the Harvard, Yale, and Stanford combined of world terrorism.
Did you see my link from BBC?
It's an exaggeration, but that's barely any of the reportings. I'm following Syrian news and I see alot of atrocities that I haven't come across in say CNN or Fox News.
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2 hours ago, panzersaurkrautwerfer said:
Nope. Historically carpet bombing has worked when the enemy is concentrated enough, and there's high enough value targets to merit the collateral damage that comes with it.
The sort of carpet bombing the Syrian/Russian air force is doing is killing a handful of dudes with small arms at the expense of the future of the Syrian people, and dozens of innocents. Not a great toolYes a great tool because there are a few footage pieces of cluster bombs catching whole rebel positions and ripping them into shreds out in the open be it in the city center, or be it out on rough terrain. If rebels would follow the countless Syrian government requests of letting civilians out we wouldn't have half the amount of collateral damage that has happened.
2 hours ago, panzersaurkrautwerfer said:Again, go back to the website. Turn on the insurgent filter, and then the unknown options. and compare the numbers with the Coalition. Now compare the fact Russian air strikes alone over the last 12 months have killed more civilians (again not even including Syrian government actions) than the US/Iraqi Government did through all activities in any year except for 2003.
Okay I did that, but it still exceeds Russia's claimed civilian kill count. 2003 is a part of the war, I can't exclude that.
2 hours ago, panzersaurkrautwerfer said:Again, your military has a massive stockpile of weapons much more suited to the fight at hand. And you're dumping unguided weapons into places where civilians live. Well, lived considering the outcome.
Why is Russia deliberately choosing to use weapons that will ensure massive civilian causalities? Why is it making "safe passage" windows that are impossibly short? Why did it bomb, or fail to stop the Syrians from bombing aid convoys?I know you're busy and no one can tell you what to read or do but have you been following up on the arms and weapons delivered to the Syrian army? You're still assuming Russia isn't using accurate weaponry but litterally just flinging bombs into the city in hopes of hitting something. This isn't the Vietnam war, there's accurate targeting systems even if a bomb is a dumb bomb. The biggest factor of civilian deaths is caused by rebel groups not letting civilians through corridors, and the worse part building their positions right next to them. In the recent attacks in SW Aleppo, rebel factions have attacked a district causing thousands of people to flee in terror. But no reporting from Western journalists because apparently Assad's forces are the only guys doing bad things.
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I'm also up for a battle too Kino or anyone else who wants a run.
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1 hour ago, panzersaurkrautwerfer said:
If a weapon was made in the US, it's going to have a US serial number. There wasn't a magic production line for US vs all other TOW-2A missiles. You'll find that data plate on all sorts of made in USA equipment regardless of the end user (I imagine if you crawled into World War Two era stuff sent via lend-lease in your museums you would find a similar data plate). Same deal with the NSN, it's just a number used for ordering replacements, and would be printed on anything made in the US.
There is a ton of TOW users in the region, some of whom were much more enthusiastic about arming the Syrian rebels of all stripes than the US. The article you sent to me is pretty straight forward that it's almost certainly an American made system, but one that could have come from 40+ different countries that have TOW missiles.Fair enough about the serial numbers, since Saudi Arabia is in the equation it would indeed be impossible to figure out if the US gave it to them or Saudis, even though both supply rebels with these weapons of course. Really a messed up situation...
1 hour ago, panzersaurkrautwerfer said:Didn't have them in a host of other urban fights, and didn't have to resort to carpet bombing blocks either. In the case of Syria it also doesn't excuse indiscriminate employment of weapons without legitimate targets either.
Carpet bombing is a very effective weapon but of course you're right they lead to heavy collateral damage if civilians are in the equation. Can't argue against that.
1 hour ago, panzersaurkrautwerfer said:You're reading the graphs wrong. Or at the least, need to read them beside the deaths caused by the insurgents. Then also take into account most of the "unknown" deaths are likely attributable to the insurgents. Right now with a high degree of certainty the most lethal thing in Syria to civilians is the Syrian government and allies. While the Iraq war left a massive toll in collateral type damage, only in 2003 did deaths from the US/allies exceed deaths from insurgents, and there's some pretty funky math that goes on to get to that point.
There's a special toolbar where you can select the casualty caused by various factions, I set it to US coalition and that's where I gave the numbers. I'm not demonizing US forces in Iraq, I'm just saying it happened even when US forces were equipped with superior everything so to speak.
1 hour ago, panzersaurkrautwerfer said:Option 1: The bombsight works as advertised, is very accurate. This means unambiguously the Russians are hitting civilian targets on purpose because there's little room for missing with how good the sight is.
Which gets us to my point that there are many cases of rebels operating in civilian positions which is against international law. Which is the point I've been trying to get too. The last time Russia deliberately killed civilians was the Chechen wars, which I condemned (not the war but the way we fought it) to think Russia in this day and age with a different leadership and way better force would deliberately hit innocents' homes where everyone has a camera is wrong to assume. Same goes for all the other people who believe the US purposely killed many innocents in the Iraq and Afghan war systematically.
Problem one faced with such high intensity urban warfare is positions are located in civilian or near civilian areas. Ammunition storage, militant medical facilities, barracks, trenches, ect. ect. strongholds are usually in high civilian density. You drop a bomb on it and the poor families which are literally in the designated operation zone are going to be killed precision weaponry or not. Which gets me to my other point that these rebel groups do not allow civilians to get through the humanitarian corridors Russia and the Syrian government opened during the last 3 major ceasefires.
1 hour ago, panzersaurkrautwerfer said:Russia uses a lot of precision, or semi-precision type weapons, ranging from ATGMs which work wonders against point targets like insurgent strongpoints, to your various guided bombs. Russia is using none of these, instead dropping bombs into populated centers using something no more complex than an electronic slide rule.
Panzer all these that you've mentioned have been supplied: Kornet ATGMs, T-90s, precision artillery equipment. It just isn't cutting it. The Russian airforce doesn't use cluster bomb loadouts only. KABs are used, other precision bombs are used as well, but majority wise SVP-24s are used. It's horrible man truth be it. Not fair to the civilians that the war is brought to them without their say.
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2 minutes ago, kinophile said:
This has to be the most deliberately ignorance and morally emptyt statement ever on this forum.
All those indescribable barrel bombs were accidentally built, somehow loaded non-deliberately onto those Russian supplied helicopters and NON DELIBERATELY fell into market places full of terrorist women and terrorist children?
Sometimes your unrelentingly apologist stance for all things Putin sickens me.
Then I move on.
A barrel bomb is a bomb, no more different if a MIG-23 dropped the dumb bomb on a militant position and missed it and hit a family's house. Let's start talking about those hell cannons? http://www.reuters.com/article/us-mideast-crisis-attacks-idUSKBN0JQ17I20141212
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12 minutes ago, panzersaurkrautwerfer said:
1. The amount of weapons we provided has been fairly modest, and with absolutely stupid levels of restriction to the degree it's effectively meaningless. We've insisted on only arming groups that'll fight ISIS, while trying to avoid ones fighting Assad, which is a cute distinction when Assad is bombing all of them. Even looking at what the Arab states (stupidly in my opinion) sent in, we're talking a drop in the bucket compared to the arms distributed to the Syrian government by the Russian government, and those arms, and their users as well and effectively illustrated in the links I posted that you failed to read, are what's killing the overwhelming majority of people, not ISIS, not the other non-state actors.
There's been more than one case a US provided TOW has killed SAA. http://armamentresearch.com/us-produced-tow-2a-atgws-in-syria/ scroll down to the picture with the US serial number on the missile. You've been in the US army, you guys have precision weaponry, GPS guided artillery shells, GPS guided PGMs, all of the gucci gear, let's take a look at what the Syrian armed forces has. If you were expecting anything miraculous since rebels don't like to let the city through safe corridors, this is what the result is.
18 minutes ago, panzersaurkrautwerfer said:2. The collateral damage in Iraq is absolutely zero percent comparable. At no point did the toll taken by the counter-insurgent forces (US/Western forces, plus Iraqi government) exceed the fatalities or injuries inflicted on civilians by the insurgents. While the death totals might be the same, the primary killer in Iraq was the insurgents driving carbombs into markets, not the government/third parties dropping unguided weapons "somewhere" near the insurgents.
Of course the insurgents drove car bombs into markets those guys are scum, but there's also reports, and studies which show casualties caused by Coalition forces, we have a website like this showing deaths caused by Coalition forces over one year https://www.iraqbodycount.org/database/ 7.5K killed in 2003, 3K in 2004. 2K in 2005. Precision weaponry was used but as you can see you still have had collateral damage. Which is fine if not deliberate, but the worse effect it brought into Iraq is totally not fine.
29 minutes ago, panzersaurkrautwerfer said:He's an interesting question though, if Russia is so concerned by the dead innocents in Syria, so interested in protecting them, where are the precision weapons? You guys have them. Not as many as we do, but surely they are not more expensive than the tanks, attack helicopters, and thousands of tons of munitions you've already sent. You guys could even drop them yourselves if they need some sort of Slavic touch to work right.
First and foremost, all our aircraft that conducts CAS or strike missions in Syria have SVP-24s which are not precision so to say, but are accurate. And there are footage out there with use of PGMs. We use what's in hand, but that beside the fact, the Syrians don't have anything like that.
Yes Russian jets have contributed to the collateral damage in Syria, but we can't just ignore the fact that rebels use these innocent people literally as hostages. https://www.rt.com/news/353937-russia-humanitarian-aid-aleppo/ it is well documented as well, this is the major reasons why the SAA has such a high collateral damage rate, yes it's horrible, and I wish it never happened, but we can't just put the whole blame on the government, it's a war and they have to fight it. They can't just give up territory and not fight because the rebels are not letting people leave the military zone.
38 minutes ago, panzersaurkrautwerfer said:Why is that? By your own admission it's your lack of precision that's killing thousands of Syrians. Why don't Russians care enough to use precision weapons? If you know whole districts are being held hostage, why don't you care enough about those hostages, if they exist, to not use these stupid GLOSSNARD/Phaser guided terrorist seeking missiles you're so proud of to actually protect human life for once?
We do have a PGM inventory, which we have used in Syria, and when we don't use precision weaponry we use the SVP-24, it's like the CCIP or CCRP, not like they are just randomly flinging bombs into an area where military targets are. This certainly caused innocents to lose their lives, and it is bad, but we aren't talking about horrible CEPs. Mistakes and militant positioning have caused many losses as well. But it is anything but deliberate.
45 minutes ago, panzersaurkrautwerfer said:Could it be you're just marching lock step with someone who clearly doesn't care about his own subjects, because you only need him in charge, and the lives of innocent Syrians don't even register on your moral calculus?
A short sighted look at the conflict will present you with a horrible image of course, the government forces have killed innocents and caused massive collateral damage, however these are anything but deliberate. We must look at this conflict in a long sighted glaze...
Assad goes, someone else who's best friends with the West comes. Now what happens to the other Jihadi groups which the West and Gulf allies have supported and armed? They're gonna let everything go back to normal? Absolutely not. It's just going to become a greater slaughter fest than it is. Radical Sunnis chopping off Shia heads, Radical Sunnis who love their group fighting Radical Sunnis that love the West. Mind you that's already what is happening, already a bunch of infighting between groups.
The uprising is a lost cause a while ago, and the majority of actual reform fighters which have taken arms against the government is quite low compared to the radicals, and what say you that are now fighting in Syria.
You can agree with that I'm sure, but where we disagree on is not even the casualties that government forces and allies have caused, but who's fight is currently right over there. I'd rather stick with the government's side where people aren't held as hostage, or forced to wear Hijabs, or be radicalized. The Government side contains majority Sunni, Shias, Alawites, Jews, Christians basically the country's population, where as we can't see much of the same on the rebel side where people are radicalized.
56 minutes ago, panzersaurkrautwerfer said:As far as insulting my intelligence, just no.
Take my apology for insulting your intelligence, if you want we can PBEM, I'll let you get back at me through there with those M1A2s and Javelins.
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7 hours ago, JUAN DEAG said:
Muslims are going to kill, rape, enslave, and torture because that is what ideologues with 2000-year-old moral teachings do. Them's the breaks, yo. The problem is when a secular civilized nation (Russia) backs a government that murders people in the tens of thousands by gassing and bombing them for daring to question Assad's legitimate reign. Then Russia follows up by killing 4,000 civilians by systematically applying inaccurate weapons to neighborhoods. Though not intentional, it shows how much Putin cares about anyone that is standing between cluster bombs and Assad's political enemies.
No man now that's just messed up, you can't categorize a whole people over what some barbarians do, I have many Muslim friends which I come to respect. The main reason Russia has come to Syria is to protect its ally. Secondly, there are thousands of Chechens and people from Russia which are fighting in Syria. I mean I'm not going to color coat it, obviously Russia hasn't come through with 100% good will in mind, no nation does that. But let's look at the choices, Assad or some nut job Jihadi? And trust me even if Assad were ousted out of power, do you think the dozens of radical groups will let someone not from their ideology freely lead?
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11 hours ago, panzersaurkrautwerfer said:
You can cite individual atrocities, but if your contention is what your country is doing, and what Assad is doing is the less terrible thing for the average Syrian, you would be comically wrong if not for the pile of dead Syrians by the hands of your countymen.
You're going to still stick with the rhetoric that evil Russkiis are systematically bombing civilians targets and not engaging military targets? if your countrymen and their allies didn't support these terrorist organizations there wouldn't be a casualty list so high. The collateral damage in Iraq is similar to this in most studies, and reports filed out, and the US is way more capable in terms of precision in everything else than the Syrian military. You do know these guys hold whole districts as hostage right? Once the government sends out papers and leaflets and announces an operation will start, the rebels never let anyone out through the given corridors.
11 hours ago, panzersaurkrautwerfer said:Personally I don't see any more need to engage with you on this topic if you are going to insult my intelligence.
With all do respect, you're way smarter than me if you were a commander of an armored unit, you know english isn't my first language so to speak, I should have worded it better. Sorry for offending you man. I'm just a dirty grunt.
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Um Panzer I appreciate the info on the death tolls, but I think you're ignoring the massacres brought forth by the rebels themselves, which have killed way more people than ISIS. If you read what I've wrote, I haven't denied Assad's troops doing collateral damage, but I've listed reasons on how these happen. But let me go on link overdrive to help you out real quick
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-24486627
https://www.rt.com/op-edge/362980-aleppo-hostages-terrorists-paymasters/
We can keep sending links to each other, but the smart one will know that once terrorists use people as hostage, once they are targeted it will result in collateral damage. US forces should know this better than most, in Iraq it happened on a large scale.
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3 minutes ago, sburke said:
No the difference is I am not Steve. Well I am Steve, but I am not the Steve from Battlefront I have seen how well you can ignore a well reasoned and documented argument and have no intention of spending that kind of time in futile discussion. At best you might change your asserted position, you'll never admit to possibly being incorrect. That sanction statement for example doesn't even make sense- your country is the one doing the damage in both cases. Oh wait yeah you've already conveniently ignored that the situation started in Syria when the gov't reacted violently to peaceful protest.... wait for it... yes just like Maiden! Russia and it's friends are at least consistent. Back to the rain gutters, yes we are finally getting rain in California!
Steve (not of Battlefront)
Hello Steve, I knew you had more than 2 accounts in the forum! Just kidding anyways
I've changed my assert on a position only once and that's about one thing, that there were Russian troops in Ukraine. Now just because I was wrong about something (and not totally off I did believe we provided weapons and advisory) doesn't make me wrong now. But if you want to play your games of "The US and its allies have never done any regime toppling of sorts, and we aren't actively arming groups which have committed horrible war crimes, and are way worse than the regime" than okay, I'll play that game too. Seriously, I'd love for the people of Syria to have groups like Jaish Al Fateh take control, would be great for human rights!
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4 minutes ago, sburke said:
You'll always have an excuse. Simplicity is the refuge for those who want excuses for their actions. I am not going to bother arguing with you. I need to go clear my rain gutters or something.
Or you won't provide a viable argument against my evidence which clearly shows terrorists funded and supported by US and its allies, killing innocents, and destroying Syria as a whole. Okay let's say Russia did bad things in Ukraine, look at the destruction in Donbas and compare it to the destruction in Syria. Please sanction your own country, before sanctioning mine.
US/ NATO v. Russia - Misperceptions.
in Combat Mission Black Sea
Posted
Congratulations to America on the election. Looking forward to Russia and the US having better relations.