VasFURY

Re: Stalin
 
From all the people I've seen in my life, most of them praised SU times for good quality of life and overall happiness. And the only times I heard someone mention Stalin was along the lines "they didn't allow to do that kind of sh when Stalin was in charge". But when you think about it, Stalin died in 1953. 62 years ago. So actually very small amount of people still alive who lived during his times, and everyone else don't even know much about it. So saying that he is "the most popular leader" would be not true. Many just attribute his work to what came after him. Not to mention the stuff that comes out of Kremlin, including "popularity polls". That's actually a part of social engineering. Saying, "85% supports Putin", so that everyone starts believing it, following herd instinct. This is why I don't like polls.

The British supplied, trained and provided intelligence to Loyalist gangs that murdered numerous British subjects over a forty year period. Going so far as to equip the gangs with captured weaponry to further escalate sectarian tensions. That's one example over a long time period that I am aware of.
 
I'm not sure what any of this thread has to do with Combat Mission, Battlefront or as background to the released games. I don't come here to be propagandised to by any side of the debate. In fact reading this thread is like listening to a group of nearly bald men arguing over who has the best hairstyle. Not good Battlefront - please uphold your own rules and end this type of debate on your games forum. There are thousands of places on the web such discussions can be had if people want to have them.

Ok guys. I guess we will wait and see. Back to being on topic.

Why is it absurd Sburke? If we are going to call Russia fascist, because of cynical actions of its state, and then dismiss that your state makes some pretty serious cynical decisions themselves, is that reasonable? So, the thousand posts here http://www.911truth.orgas well as hundreds of other sites, means all these people talk absurd nonsense?

Arguably, the difference is the FSB guys got caught doing what they were doing, while your guys didnt get caught doing what they were doing. Thats the difference. The end result is the same.

And the talk about the excuse machine, dude, noone is making excuses for what the Rus. Government is or is not doing. Im saying dont be sitting on your high chair calling them fascists, and then pretending that there are no similarities in US's actions of the past, that could just as easily apply that terminology to themownselves.

Why is it absurd Sburke? If we are going to call Russia fascist, because of cynical actions of its state, and then dismiss that your state makes some pretty serious cynical decisions themselves, is that reasonable? So, the thousand posts here http://www.911truth.orgas well as hundreds of other sites, means all these people talk absurd nonsense?

Arguably, the difference is the FSB guys got caught doing what they were doing, while your guys didnt get caught doing what they were doing. Thats the difference. The end result is the same.

And the talk about the excuse machine, dude, noone is making excuses for what the Rus. Government is or is not doing. Im saying dont be sitting on your high chair calling them fascists, and then pretending that there are no similarities in US's actions of the past, that could just as easily apply that terminology to themownselves.

Why is it absurd Sburke? If we are going to call Russia fascist, because of cynical actions of its state, and then dismiss that your state makes some pretty serious cynical decisions themselves, is that reasonable? So, the thousand posts here http://www.911truth.orgas well as hundreds of other sites, means all these people talk absurd nonsense?

Arguably, the difference is the FSB guys got caught doing what they were doing, while your guys didnt get caught doing what they were doing. Thats the difference. The end result is the same.

And the talk about the excuse machine, dude, noone is making excuses for what the Rus. Government is or is not doing. Im saying dont be sitting on your high chair calling them fascists, and then pretending that there are no similarities in US's actions of the past, that could just as easily apply that terminology to themownselves.

Why is it absurd Sburke? If we are going to call Russia fascist, because of cynical actions of its state, and then dismiss that your state makes some pretty serious cynical decisions themselves, is that reasonable? So, the thousand posts here http://www.911truth.orgas well as hundreds of other sites, means all these people talk absurd nonsense?

Arguably, the difference is the FSB guys got caught doing what they were doing, while your guys didnt get caught doing what they were doing. Thats the difference. The end result is the same.

And the talk about the excuse machine, dude, noone is making excuses for what the Rus. Government is or is not doing. Im saying dont be sitting on your high chair calling them fascists, and then pretending that there are no similarities in US's actions of the past, that could just as easily apply that terminology to themownselves.

Why is it absurd Sburke? If we are going to call Russia fascist, because of cynical actions of its state, and then dismiss that your state makes some pretty serious cynical decisions themselves, is that reasonable? So, the thousand posts here http://www.911truth.orgas well as hundreds of other sites, means all these people talk absurd nonsense?

Arguably, the difference is the FSB guys got caught doing what they were doing, while your guys didnt get caught doing what they were doing. Thats the difference. The end result is the same.

And the talk about the excuse machine, dude, noone is making excuses for what the Rus. Government is or is not doing. Im saying dont be sitting on your high chair calling them fascists, and then pretending that there are no similarities in US's actions of the past, that could just as easily apply that terminology to themownselves.

it is really amusing to read this discussion. west vs east accusing for wrongdoings... all it really shows is how we are influenced by propaganda. 
 
no way of denying russia, or USSR for that matter, is an imperialistic power wanting to force its interests as soon as it was able to. the track record is just too long to be a coincidence. czechoslovakia, hungary, poland, afghanistan, cuba, korea... the list goes on... funny enough, the only guy who was able to push off the superpower (at least that i can recall atm) was Tito and Yugoslavia that refused to bend to Stalin's USSR and went on to develop it's own way of socialism. Sadly we know how that went in the end, or do we?
 
the same goes for USA. Whole latin america, middle east, asia... there really is no difference between the two. and if you go and zoom in into the regions and regional powers you will see the same pattern of behaviour wherever you go. everyone trying to push their interests. usually just by diplomatic or economic pressure and ultimately force. only difference is that as you go to bigger scale reaching the global superpowers you will see the trail of armed conflicts longer and blodier simply because superpowers are able to do it more often without being held accounted. but make no mistake just any country would do it if given opportunity. 
 
that is just the nature of politics and power struggle from the dawn of men. what is perhaps worst is how we stick behind our countries and rally at the flag for "our cause" whole time being perfectly aware what it means but still finding excuses. 

@LaCroix,

Come on bro, dont shy away from the posting. Those guys are expressing their opinion on how THEY see the conflict. You express on how YOU see it. Ultimately there is no right or wrong. Just because they dont agree with what you say, doesnt mean you shouldnt say it. If you hadnt inotially posted what you posted, and if the others hadn't responded, I personally would have never realised the severity of that situation (call me ignorant or whatever). Granted, you are not here to satisfy my curiosity, but it was indeed interesting to read the discussion stemming from your posts.

Wargame European Escalation, Wargame Airland Battles, and Wargame Red Dragon my friend!

LaCroix, i think I understand what you are trying to say - it is definitely difficult to express it in a foreign language.

Ultimately, its as Panzer said (and Steve pointed out to me in a different conversation about a month ago):

Sublime loves his homeland, you love yours. Its good that you both love the countries that you are from - to the extent that you both do. It also means that you both will disagree on some of the principal points in both your arguments, and to be honest I think most of us readers are not that qualified to judge who is right and who is wrong. I tend to sympathise with you, because that **** happened right on your doorstep, and it mustve been a hell of an awful time. Tell us more, but dont be surprised if the Americans counter with their own arguments - there may sometimes be something of value to learn in those comments. Or something that you can counter with your own knowledge!

@ Panzer:

Thank you for taking the time to formulate your answer - having read it, I respect your opinions and your approach to the arguments alot more.

Ultimately, it comes down to this, what you said:
"Your point is to indicate both histories are bloody. Okay. That's not what we're debating though. We're debating that the Russians stand up to their chin in blood, and deny they're standing in it "

You are right, Russians would never accept their own dirt. Its a mentality that needs to change from the top of the pillar, down to the general public.
-------

@ Sublime

You do make some good points. I will disagree with you on the comment about everyone villifying the U.S. Lets be honest, in the few months that ive been on the forums, the only time I have seen people raise issues about the US in a negative way, is AFTER someone representing your Nation, has laughed or ridiculed poor Ivan, or his crappy mechanised toys, or a party related to Ivan, amd so forth :-) .

-------
Thanks to both of you for the examples of the Russkies and their integration. Im actually quite surprised that they would talk about Russia as a "****hole" - probably due to the experience of their parents in USSR/post collapse 90's? I personally grew up there from 85 till 94. Now have lived 20 years in UK. Integrated fully in the local society, consider it my home, dont have any Russian friends (all my Family is in Ukraine), but I still cant help but feel defensive when someone talks smack of my homeland, or judges it or points out whats wrong with it etc. Would never call it a ****hole or any other derogatory term. Do find hard to accept some of the wrongs it has done. Is it Patriotism? Dont think so. Nostalgia? Nah not quite. Love for a country, and more so for its people - no matter if many of them are misguided/bullish in their way of life? Yeh, probably a little. Would love to see a "better" Russia. But to be honest, for the most part, I dont think its really that bad. I can see a tonne of things wrong with the way things are done here in the UK, the stuff that doesnt get reported, how freedom of speech is repressed and basic human rights are ignored. Best way to avoid problems at home (UK), is to point at a villain (RF, IS, Syria) abroad, eh?

---------

@ Aurelius and Lacroix - im sorry that you had to experience the situations which you describe in your homelands. I really dont know much about the conflict, so cannot comment, but will continue following the discussion closely.

-----
@ Raptor
You are so right about that! I look forward to all the discussions that go on here. One - it lets me learn more of the world, people and opinions as a whole. Two - sometimes through discussion you learn that some people are not as ignorant as I may have initially thought, and do raise good/valid points. Three - you get a reasonable forum to express your own opinions and possibly sway the mindset of others.

Plus, some of the stuff I have read from the guys in this community, is of a real top standard. Should get put together in a work of literature of its own.

@ Panzer:

Thank you for taking the time to formulate your answer - having read it, I respect your opinions and your approach to the arguments alot more.

Ultimately, it comes down to this, what you said:
"Your point is to indicate both histories are bloody. Okay. That's not what we're debating though. We're debating that the Russians stand up to their chin in blood, and deny they're standing in it "

You are right, Russians would never accept their own dirt. Its a mentality that needs to change from the top of the pillar, down to the general public.
-------

@ Sublime

You do make some good points. I will disagree with you on the comment about everyone villifying the U.S. Lets be honest, in the few months that ive been on the forums, the only time I have seen people raise issues about the US in a negative way, is AFTER someone representing your Nation, has laughed or ridiculed poor Ivan, or his crappy mechanised toys, or a party related to Ivan, amd so forth :-) .

-------
Thanks to both of you for the examples of the Russkies and their integration. Im actually quite surprised that they would talk about Russia as a "****hole" - probably due to the experience of their parents in USSR/post collapse 90's? I personally grew up there from 85 till 94. Now have lived 20 years in UK. Integrated fully in the local society, consider it my home, dont have any Russian friends (all my Family is in Ukraine), but I still cant help but feel defensive when someone talks smack of my homeland, or judges it or points out whats wrong with it etc. Would never call it a ****hole or any other derogatory term. Do find hard to accept some of the wrongs it has done. Is it Patriotism? Dont think so. Nostalgia? Nah not quite. Love for a country, and more so for its people - no matter if many of them are misguided/bullish in their way of life? Yeh, probably a little. Would love to see a "better" Russia. But to be honest, for the most part, I dont think its really that bad. I can see a tonne of things wrong with the way things are done here in the UK, the stuff that doesnt get reported, how freedom of speech is repressed and basic human rights are ignored. Best way to avoid problems at home (UK), is to point at a villain (RF, IS, Syria) abroad, eh?

---------

@ Aurelius and Lacroix - im sorry that you had to experience the situations which you describe in your homelands. I really dont know much about the conflict, so cannot comment, but will continue following the discussion closely.

-----
@ Raptor
You are so right about that! I look forward to all the discussions that go on here. One - it lets me learn more of the world, people and opinions as a whole. Two - sometimes through discussion you learn that some people are not as ignorant as I may have initially thought, and do raise good/valid points. Three - you get a reasonable forum to express your own opinions and possibly sway the mindset of others.

Plus, some of the stuff I have read from the guys in this community, is of a real top standard. Should get put together in a work of literature of its own.

Panzer wrote:
 
"Contrast this to the Russian army which can give locusts a run for it's money, if locusts could rape and install puppet governments.  That's actually rather another reason I strongly dislike the Russian military, it's like having another company that does what you do, only sans morality, decency, and gloats about how it gets away with a lack of either.  Which almost loops back onto the topic, it's why I hate the Russian "victory" day parades.  They're in effect celebrating the nightmare they brought through Eastern Europe, the Stalinist oppression of thousands of innocent people, and the systematic rape and looting of anything with a correctly sized set of holes, or that could fit on a train back to Moscow.  It's like if the US Army had a "Wounded Knee Victory Parade" or the Brits held a festival to celebrate the first use of the maxim gun on indigenous people.  Then pair it with being a celebration of a return to Russian militarism and it just honestly gets sort of sick in that regard."  
 
Panzer, you just gotta look at Russia as a country that is going through the cycles that all other major countries went through 100-400 years ago (sort of, delayed evolution). What you describe, is exactly the same as what the British or the French did to their colonies. Or what the young (first founded) Americans did to the Indians or the African slaves. Russian people themselves are people who have been enslaved for hundreds of years by the Mongol-Tatars, then by the Imperialist Tsarism, then by the corrupted "freedom" of Communism, then by the Mafiosi of the 90's, and now by the current dictatorship. This, and the huge population losses of two world wars and the subsequent Stalinist repressions, has really made the people "bitter". I know its not an excuse, but Russia (well, certainly Russian mentality) has not evolved as quickly as the rest of the civilized world. You can still sort of consider it as a, maybe not 3rd world country, but definitely 2.5 world country. I feel that for my homeland to reach similar levels of Morality as is exhibited right now in the West, it will take about 50-100 or so years, and a few regime changes. 
 
HAVING SAID THAT, I believe that Russians actually need a strong Dictator leader at the present moment, because without one, the country will just return back to the 90s, with various fragments of society all vying for power through dubious means. 
 
Regarding the Victory Day parade celebrations - you got it wrong mate. Its like saying that you guys celebrate 4th of July Independence day as a celebration of all the pillaging your nation did in its birth, and then got away with it by cutting ties to "civilized" european "motherlands". Russians celebrate Victory day, because 20 or so million people died in WW2, and about 2million in WW1. The looting/raping/oppression of Eastern states is a by-product of a harsh and severe attitude that was exerted onto Russians during the Nazi advance. My Grandmother on my Father's side was raped by Fashist Poles (she is from Western ukraine). My Nanny, from when I lived in St. Petersburg in my infancy,  was captured by the Norwegians and mutilated during the 300 day blockade of Leningrad. And there are MILLIONS of stories like that. How do you think the Husbands, Fathers, Brothers of such women would react, when bitterness is deep in their soul and they are finally pushing back into the lands of the invaders? There you go. 
 
You Americans have never experienced such loss/terror/anguish, because all your wars of the last 100 years are far away from home. Don't judge Russians for their attitude, because there is A LOT of history that got them to this attitude. 
 
Of course, the flip side, is that - this was 70 years ago, Russians should move on, let go of the bitterness, forgive and forget so to say, act more "honourable" etc. like the rest of the world is, become friendly with neighbours, etc etc. I dont know. I see that the African population of certain cities in the US is definitely still bitter about certain circumstances that used to happen more than 150 years ago (before slavery was abolished in the States). I mean heck, they BUILT your country and its economy, but yet probably more than half of them live much worse off than a poor Russian family currently lives (and I have been to the States many times, so I do know what I'm talking about). 
 
So, not to take a bite at you or anything with the above, but Russians are a proud people (maybe not noble, but definitely very proud), who respect their past/history, celebrate the memory of the forefathers, like to flex their muscle (even when its made out of cardboard), think the rest of the world is out to get them (not just because of state propaganda, but because of the lessons taught by history), and will continue to do whatever the hell they want until either (a) they are knocked on the head (internally or externally), or ( throgh the years they travel west more, see how the rest of the world lives, and try to bring good moral principles back to their homeland for improvement. They definitely do not view the Americans or the States as anything that should provide them with a good moral compass (you guys have been ridiculing Russia waaay to much in the past - Hollywood et al, which just adds to the Russian's "bitterness"). They do view Germany and the UK in quite high regard, as well as Finland/Sweden.
 
Oh, almost forgot to say, regarding the behaviour of the current Russian Military - you gotta remember that the RF military has not fought alongside any of the Western militaries against a common enemy in like, ever? I think for the Russian Military, in order to act in the "morally correct" way that you describe, would need to be deployed somewhere along side Western forces, so as to learn from their behaviour, emulate it, and garner respect from their comrades in arms for emulating such behaviour. I mean, isnt this how you guys became so "polite" while waging war? Because you did it alongside the French and the Brits, who would say - Oi, you there Sir, why are you acting like that to those poor farmers? It must be a psychological thing - if you are criticized for your behaviour from the OUTSIDE, then the Russian troops are like - whatever, youre not here, dont tell us what to do and what not to do. Whereas, if your troops are next to theirs, pinned in an arty bombard, losing comrades in arms equally, and then if the Russians start abusing the residents of a village that you both have just stormed, and you say - dude, thats wrong - they may listen to you closer, because they wont want to look bad in the eyes of their comrades in arms.  

Well said and very true, although the 7 families of the drunk driver victims might not agree

Not going to repeat myself, it might be the same type of game it's a whole different ballpark or league. The Frenchies and the UK have had their dirty laundry too. But the world isn't a contest to get the most dirty laundry (congrats your way ahead of the competition! ). Anyway if you don't see the problem of you fighting the symptoms of 'something' and just that symptom fighting has become a larger than law enforcement bloody war with organizations around the globe, while you do away with 'something' as a vague thing outside of your control (haters gonna hate us anyway), your missing the whole point. 
 
   
Here it is. Of course hypocrisy is no reason to kill although some nutjobs think it is. Anyway a group of people thought what you done to them is so bad (rightly or wrongly) that a couple of nutcases from that group fly planes in the WTC. 14 years later you're still bombing people in retaliation and it isn't helping. It's time to check the mirror instead of justifying your own killing.
 
I'm not listening to many anti-American or anti-Western speakers, I'm just thinking critically and have the ability, as a Western person, to accept that we might have our share in the origin of certain stinking mess in the world. I have had the opportunity to travel the world and getting to know local people in many different countries which has probably influenced me. Personally I don't think the insights that gave me are fantasy, more on the lines of a paradigm shift.
 
 
I'm thinking you are mixing up hate with a couple of things: healthy skepticism of foreign 'invaders', severe distrust of any authority, generally not caring and or minding your own business (probably a smart thing to do when living under Saddam) and of course there will be those that will always hate. While the majority can be the average intelligent person + the 50% that's less intelligent, I'm not accepting your statement that most of them will hate the West one way or the other and will pick up weapons to go and kill us just because they feel like.

Panzer wrote:
 
"Contrast this to the Russian army which can give locusts a run for it's money, if locusts could rape and install puppet governments.  That's actually rather another reason I strongly dislike the Russian military, it's like having another company that does what you do, only sans morality, decency, and gloats about how it gets away with a lack of either.  Which almost loops back onto the topic, it's why I hate the Russian "victory" day parades.  They're in effect celebrating the nightmare they brought through Eastern Europe, the Stalinist oppression of thousands of innocent people, and the systematic rape and looting of anything with a correctly sized set of holes, or that could fit on a train back to Moscow.  It's like if the US Army had a "Wounded Knee Victory Parade" or the Brits held a festival to celebrate the first use of the maxim gun on indigenous people.  Then pair it with being a celebration of a return to Russian militarism and it just honestly gets sort of sick in that regard."  
 
Panzer, you just gotta look at Russia as a country that is going through the cycles that all other major countries went through 100-400 years ago (sort of, delayed evolution). What you describe, is exactly the same as what the British or the French did to their colonies. Or what the young (first founded) Americans did to the Indians or the African slaves. Russian people themselves are people who have been enslaved for hundreds of years by the Mongol-Tatars, then by the Imperialist Tsarism, then by the corrupted "freedom" of Communism, then by the Mafiosi of the 90's, and now by the current dictatorship. This, and the huge population losses of two world wars and the subsequent Stalinist repressions, has really made the people "bitter". I know its not an excuse, but Russia (well, certainly Russian mentality) has not evolved as quickly as the rest of the civilized world. You can still sort of consider it as a, maybe not 3rd world country, but definitely 2.5 world country. I feel that for my homeland to reach similar levels of Morality as is exhibited right now in the West, it will take about 50-100 or so years, and a few regime changes. 
 
HAVING SAID THAT, I believe that Russians actually need a strong Dictator leader at the present moment, because without one, the country will just return back to the 90s, with various fragments of society all vying for power through dubious means. 
 
Regarding the Victory Day parade celebrations - you got it wrong mate. Its like saying that you guys celebrate 4th of July Independence day as a celebration of all the pillaging your nation did in its birth, and then got away with it by cutting ties to "civilized" european "motherlands". Russians celebrate Victory day, because 20 or so million people died in WW2, and about 2million in WW1. The looting/raping/oppression of Eastern states is a by-product of a harsh and severe attitude that was exerted onto Russians during the Nazi advance. My Grandmother on my Father's side was raped by Fashist Poles (she is from Western ukraine). My Nanny, from when I lived in St. Petersburg in my infancy,  was captured by the Norwegians and mutilated during the 300 day blockade of Leningrad. And there are MILLIONS of stories like that. How do you think the Husbands, Fathers, Brothers of such women would react, when bitterness is deep in their soul and they are finally pushing back into the lands of the invaders? There you go. 
 
You Americans have never experienced such loss/terror/anguish, because all your wars of the last 100 years are far away from home. Don't judge Russians for their attitude, because there is A LOT of history that got them to this attitude. 
 
Of course, the flip side, is that - this was 70 years ago, Russians should move on, let go of the bitterness, forgive and forget so to say, act more "honourable" etc. like the rest of the world is, become friendly with neighbours, etc etc. I dont know. I see that the African population of certain cities in the US is definitely still bitter about certain circumstances that used to happen more than 150 years ago (before slavery was abolished in the States). I mean heck, they BUILT your country and its economy, but yet probably more than half of them live much worse off than a poor Russian family currently lives (and I have been to the States many times, so I do know what I'm talking about). 
 
So, not to take a bite at you or anything with the above, but Russians are a proud people (maybe not noble, but definitely very proud), who respect their past/history, celebrate the memory of the forefathers, like to flex their muscle (even when its made out of cardboard), think the rest of the world is out to get them (not just because of state propaganda, but because of the lessons taught by history), and will continue to do whatever the hell they want until either (a) they are knocked on the head (internally or externally), or ( throgh the years they travel west more, see how the rest of the world lives, and try to bring good moral principles back to their homeland for improvement. They definitely do not view the Americans or the States as anything that should provide them with a good moral compass (you guys have been ridiculing Russia waaay to much in the past - Hollywood et al, which just adds to the Russian's "bitterness"). They do view Germany and the UK in quite high regard, as well as Finland/Sweden.
 
Oh, almost forgot to say, regarding the behaviour of the current Russian Military - you gotta remember that the RF military has not fought alongside any of the Western militaries against a common enemy in like, ever? I think for the Russian Military, in order to act in the "morally correct" way that you describe, would need to be deployed somewhere along side Western forces, so as to learn from their behaviour, emulate it, and garner respect from their comrades in arms for emulating such behaviour. I mean, isnt this how you guys became so "polite" while waging war? Because you did it alongside the French and the Brits, who would say - Oi, you there Sir, why are you acting like that to those poor farmers? It must be a psychological thing - if you are criticized for your behaviour from the OUTSIDE, then the Russian troops are like - whatever, youre not here, dont tell us what to do and what not to do. Whereas, if your troops are next to theirs, pinned in an arty bombard, losing comrades in arms equally, and then if the Russians start abusing the residents of a village that you both have just stormed, and you say - dude, thats wrong - they may listen to you closer, because they wont want to look bad in the eyes of their comrades in arms.  

Panzer wrote:
 
"Contrast this to the Russian army which can give locusts a run for it's money, if locusts could rape and install puppet governments.  That's actually rather another reason I strongly dislike the Russian military, it's like having another company that does what you do, only sans morality, decency, and gloats about how it gets away with a lack of either.  Which almost loops back onto the topic, it's why I hate the Russian "victory" day parades.  They're in effect celebrating the nightmare they brought through Eastern Europe, the Stalinist oppression of thousands of innocent people, and the systematic rape and looting of anything with a correctly sized set of holes, or that could fit on a train back to Moscow.  It's like if the US Army had a "Wounded Knee Victory Parade" or the Brits held a festival to celebrate the first use of the maxim gun on indigenous people.  Then pair it with being a celebration of a return to Russian militarism and it just honestly gets sort of sick in that regard."  
 
Panzer, you just gotta look at Russia as a country that is going through the cycles that all other major countries went through 100-400 years ago (sort of, delayed evolution). What you describe, is exactly the same as what the British or the French did to their colonies. Or what the young (first founded) Americans did to the Indians or the African slaves. Russian people themselves are people who have been enslaved for hundreds of years by the Mongol-Tatars, then by the Imperialist Tsarism, then by the corrupted "freedom" of Communism, then by the Mafiosi of the 90's, and now by the current dictatorship. This, and the huge population losses of two world wars and the subsequent Stalinist repressions, has really made the people "bitter". I know its not an excuse, but Russia (well, certainly Russian mentality) has not evolved as quickly as the rest of the civilized world. You can still sort of consider it as a, maybe not 3rd world country, but definitely 2.5 world country. I feel that for my homeland to reach similar levels of Morality as is exhibited right now in the West, it will take about 50-100 or so years, and a few regime changes. 
 
HAVING SAID THAT, I believe that Russians actually need a strong Dictator leader at the present moment, because without one, the country will just return back to the 90s, with various fragments of society all vying for power through dubious means. 
 
Regarding the Victory Day parade celebrations - you got it wrong mate. Its like saying that you guys celebrate 4th of July Independence day as a celebration of all the pillaging your nation did in its birth, and then got away with it by cutting ties to "civilized" european "motherlands". Russians celebrate Victory day, because 20 or so million people died in WW2, and about 2million in WW1. The looting/raping/oppression of Eastern states is a by-product of a harsh and severe attitude that was exerted onto Russians during the Nazi advance. My Grandmother on my Father's side was raped by Fashist Poles (she is from Western ukraine). My Nanny, from when I lived in St. Petersburg in my infancy,  was captured by the Norwegians and mutilated during the 300 day blockade of Leningrad. And there are MILLIONS of stories like that. How do you think the Husbands, Fathers, Brothers of such women would react, when bitterness is deep in their soul and they are finally pushing back into the lands of the invaders? There you go. 
 
You Americans have never experienced such loss/terror/anguish, because all your wars of the last 100 years are far away from home. Don't judge Russians for their attitude, because there is A LOT of history that got them to this attitude. 
 
Of course, the flip side, is that - this was 70 years ago, Russians should move on, let go of the bitterness, forgive and forget so to say, act more "honourable" etc. like the rest of the world is, become friendly with neighbours, etc etc. I dont know. I see that the African population of certain cities in the US is definitely still bitter about certain circumstances that used to happen more than 150 years ago (before slavery was abolished in the States). I mean heck, they BUILT your country and its economy, but yet probably more than half of them live much worse off than a poor Russian family currently lives (and I have been to the States many times, so I do know what I'm talking about). 
 
So, not to take a bite at you or anything with the above, but Russians are a proud people (maybe not noble, but definitely very proud), who respect their past/history, celebrate the memory of the forefathers, like to flex their muscle (even when its made out of cardboard), think the rest of the world is out to get them (not just because of state propaganda, but because of the lessons taught by history), and will continue to do whatever the hell they want until either (a) they are knocked on the head (internally or externally), or ( throgh the years they travel west more, see how the rest of the world lives, and try to bring good moral principles back to their homeland for improvement. They definitely do not view the Americans or the States as anything that should provide them with a good moral compass (you guys have been ridiculing Russia waaay to much in the past - Hollywood et al, which just adds to the Russian's "bitterness"). They do view Germany and the UK in quite high regard, as well as Finland/Sweden.
 
Oh, almost forgot to say, regarding the behaviour of the current Russian Military - you gotta remember that the RF military has not fought alongside any of the Western militaries against a common enemy in like, ever? I think for the Russian Military, in order to act in the "morally correct" way that you describe, would need to be deployed somewhere along side Western forces, so as to learn from their behaviour, emulate it, and garner respect from their comrades in arms for emulating such behaviour. I mean, isnt this how you guys became so "polite" while waging war? Because you did it alongside the French and the Brits, who would say - Oi, you there Sir, why are you acting like that to those poor farmers? It must be a psychological thing - if you are criticized for your behaviour from the OUTSIDE, then the Russian troops are like - whatever, youre not here, dont tell us what to do and what not to do. Whereas, if your troops are next to theirs, pinned in an arty bombard, losing comrades in arms equally, and then if the Russians start abusing the residents of a village that you both have just stormed, and you say - dude, thats wrong - they may listen to you closer, because they wont want to look bad in the eyes of their comrades in arms.  

Panzer wrote:
 
"Contrast this to the Russian army which can give locusts a run for it's money, if locusts could rape and install puppet governments.  That's actually rather another reason I strongly dislike the Russian military, it's like having another company that does what you do, only sans morality, decency, and gloats about how it gets away with a lack of either.  Which almost loops back onto the topic, it's why I hate the Russian "victory" day parades.  They're in effect celebrating the nightmare they brought through Eastern Europe, the Stalinist oppression of thousands of innocent people, and the systematic rape and looting of anything with a correctly sized set of holes, or that could fit on a train back to Moscow.  It's like if the US Army had a "Wounded Knee Victory Parade" or the Brits held a festival to celebrate the first use of the maxim gun on indigenous people.  Then pair it with being a celebration of a return to Russian militarism and it just honestly gets sort of sick in that regard."  
 
Panzer, you just gotta look at Russia as a country that is going through the cycles that all other major countries went through 100-400 years ago (sort of, delayed evolution). What you describe, is exactly the same as what the British or the French did to their colonies. Or what the young (first founded) Americans did to the Indians or the African slaves. Russian people themselves are people who have been enslaved for hundreds of years by the Mongol-Tatars, then by the Imperialist Tsarism, then by the corrupted "freedom" of Communism, then by the Mafiosi of the 90's, and now by the current dictatorship. This, and the huge population losses of two world wars and the subsequent Stalinist repressions, has really made the people "bitter". I know its not an excuse, but Russia (well, certainly Russian mentality) has not evolved as quickly as the rest of the civilized world. You can still sort of consider it as a, maybe not 3rd world country, but definitely 2.5 world country. I feel that for my homeland to reach similar levels of Morality as is exhibited right now in the West, it will take about 50-100 or so years, and a few regime changes. 
 
HAVING SAID THAT, I believe that Russians actually need a strong Dictator leader at the present moment, because without one, the country will just return back to the 90s, with various fragments of society all vying for power through dubious means. 
 
Regarding the Victory Day parade celebrations - you got it wrong mate. Its like saying that you guys celebrate 4th of July Independence day as a celebration of all the pillaging your nation did in its birth, and then got away with it by cutting ties to "civilized" european "motherlands". Russians celebrate Victory day, because 20 or so million people died in WW2, and about 2million in WW1. The looting/raping/oppression of Eastern states is a by-product of a harsh and severe attitude that was exerted onto Russians during the Nazi advance. My Grandmother on my Father's side was raped by Fashist Poles (she is from Western ukraine). My Nanny, from when I lived in St. Petersburg in my infancy,  was captured by the Norwegians and mutilated during the 300 day blockade of Leningrad. And there are MILLIONS of stories like that. How do you think the Husbands, Fathers, Brothers of such women would react, when bitterness is deep in their soul and they are finally pushing back into the lands of the invaders? There you go. 
 
You Americans have never experienced such loss/terror/anguish, because all your wars of the last 100 years are far away from home. Don't judge Russians for their attitude, because there is A LOT of history that got them to this attitude. 
 
Of course, the flip side, is that - this was 70 years ago, Russians should move on, let go of the bitterness, forgive and forget so to say, act more "honourable" etc. like the rest of the world is, become friendly with neighbours, etc etc. I dont know. I see that the African population of certain cities in the US is definitely still bitter about certain circumstances that used to happen more than 150 years ago (before slavery was abolished in the States). I mean heck, they BUILT your country and its economy, but yet probably more than half of them live much worse off than a poor Russian family currently lives (and I have been to the States many times, so I do know what I'm talking about). 
 
So, not to take a bite at you or anything with the above, but Russians are a proud people (maybe not noble, but definitely very proud), who respect their past/history, celebrate the memory of the forefathers, like to flex their muscle (even when its made out of cardboard), think the rest of the world is out to get them (not just because of state propaganda, but because of the lessons taught by history), and will continue to do whatever the hell they want until either (a) they are knocked on the head (internally or externally), or ( throgh the years they travel west more, see how the rest of the world lives, and try to bring good moral principles back to their homeland for improvement. They definitely do not view the Americans or the States as anything that should provide them with a good moral compass (you guys have been ridiculing Russia waaay to much in the past - Hollywood et al, which just adds to the Russian's "bitterness"). They do view Germany and the UK in quite high regard, as well as Finland/Sweden.
 
Oh, almost forgot to say, regarding the behaviour of the current Russian Military - you gotta remember that the RF military has not fought alongside any of the Western militaries against a common enemy in like, ever? I think for the Russian Military, in order to act in the "morally correct" way that you describe, would need to be deployed somewhere along side Western forces, so as to learn from their behaviour, emulate it, and garner respect from their comrades in arms for emulating such behaviour. I mean, isnt this how you guys became so "polite" while waging war? Because you did it alongside the French and the Brits, who would say - Oi, you there Sir, why are you acting like that to those poor farmers? It must be a psychological thing - if you are criticized for your behaviour from the OUTSIDE, then the Russian troops are like - whatever, youre not here, dont tell us what to do and what not to do. Whereas, if your troops are next to theirs, pinned in an arty bombard, losing comrades in arms equally, and then if the Russians start abusing the residents of a village that you both have just stormed, and you say - dude, thats wrong - they may listen to you closer, because they wont want to look bad in the eyes of their comrades in arms.  

I would love to see Civilians modeled in. 
 
Right now, pretty much any SP or MP battle, my IFV's briefly target EVERY building they have in their sights, to suppress or kill anything that may be hiding there. I also indiscriminately drop arty on city centres and villages, where enemy troops may be hiding.
 
However, it would be nice to have civilians with random behaviour (hiding/running across the street in panic, etc) to be modeled into the game engine, because the reality right now is that civilian casualties is even more of a big thing than it ever used to be before. As we can see from online videos in areas of operations around Eastern Ukraine, people don't really vacate their homes, because its all they have to their name and its likely to get looted if they are gone. 
 
Therefore, as a way to be more accurate in the use of your troops, I would love it if civilians were a factor, with penalties to final scoring for killing said civilians (say, each civilian death will remove 75 points from final score). There doesnt need to be loads of them - maybe 3 or 4 families per battle map (10-16 pixelpersons), randomly distributed in the maps buildings near victory objectives, so as to promote smarter play, rather than "brief fire at every building", or area deny 152mm arty strike. 

''''Kosovo's objection has more to do with who's friends with who.  The behavior of the Serbian military pretty much 1993-1999 is on the road to terrible, and we're ready to remember the agony of sad that the Serbs went through during the bombing, but not the well filled ditches the Serbs left from Croatia, through Bosnia, and beyond.  All the Serbs had to do is stop shooting civilians, and there wouldn't have been much of a leg to stand on.
 
As the case is the region is a lot more stable today, and there's a marked downtick in violence.  And Kosovo isn't a US territory so there you go.  ''''''
 
(note: land in 21st century doesnt need to be conquered on a political 19th century map)
 
 
i duuno about other stuff, but i am from serbia and i am ethnic serb. and i am not nationalist, i am anti serb , i am often disgusted by our traditions ,  i think its pointless and brainwashing-ish. i like western europe  but,
 
you are wrong
 
situation in our country back then was to say the least very complicated. its , (very loose term) something like war of the clans. you have many factions during the time. and listen now, NONE of them are good and NONE of them are bad
 
Albanian unrest  started in the 80s , or even earlier. but 80s are the starting point of this story (kinda simplified story) , it wasnt that much of a big deal, you know unrests happen but not many people at that time thought it will be War... we must see things from their (past) point of view (their: people in the past)
 
you have quazi communists/socialist or whatever they are, you have albanian nationalists, you have Serb nationalists and many other factions. and most of them are dumb as ****, on both sides (plebs)
 
simply put, there are interests of Albanian nationalists, ethnic albanians and to some extent extremists, problem is , sometimes its hard to differentiate who is extremist and who is not, who is for* extremists and who is not and how much do they support certain idea at the given time/region, its VERY VERY complicated. 3 people playing board games @ basement can get into fight , not to mention province/state where there are milions of people...
 
AND you have  serbian moderates ,nationalists and extremists.. its a ****ty mess
 
so their interests (albanian): have their own country/Join albania,or get bigger autonomy
 
Serb interests: keep kosovo (since its heart of serbia and all that bull**** , even tho its true thats where serbia WAS dominant , now its not , due to ww1 and ww2 and other events ) 
 
on other hand you have Milosevic who is "neutral' and want to perserve things (the president), but in reality he kiiiinda secretly does things to benefit ethnic serbs since he sees things are eventually gona get bad, but how bad ?
 
Albanians are those who are attacking status quo,that must be clear, back then Our country was Recognized by the world,everything was legit.
 
Terrorist attacks started, small or big doesnt matter
 
you will say , ''they started   because albanians were supressed''
 
but that is not a honest answer , do you Really think you know who throw the first stone? its a multidimensional situation/problem, you cant just put it into linear box. theres lots of propaganda on both sides, and honestly, you cant know the truth by watching ,well one of the Not so credible News : CNN , 25 000 km away somewhere in atlanta
 
**** happened, on both sides , but on a multidimensional level (Where,how, what,why,Reaction to previous event, wrong conclusions ,wrong translations of the actions etc etc etc ) 
 
you know your country (State)  is very famous for ... well ... strange inconsitencies right? so is every country at one point in time, but just keep that in mind when talking about informations and clinton and other ... ' loving' people. 
i think its safe to assume that clinton doesnt (didnt) give a **** about serbs nor albanians. or at lest its more realistic saying that it doesnt matter what he 'thinks' , he can say he did it for humanitarian reasons, or for the money , it doesnt matter, his opinion is irrelevant. So far Evidence has shown that there are no bad/good guys, only dead/alive guys

Anyone watching the parade right now?

I dont necessarily agree with what Russia has been recently doing in particular areas of the world, but this parade is making me feel very proud for the Motherland nonetheless!

Anyone watching the parade right now?

I dont necessarily agree with what Russia has been recently doing in particular areas of the world, but this parade is making me feel very proud for the Motherland nonetheless!