InvaderCanuck

I agree with your comment. For me as released the game is an abortion of epic proportions. The reputation BF has garnered for the CMx1 games is partially responsible for the scope of my disappointment. What I see are a score of fundamental problems with the engine, yes I said fundamental, that I will consider fundamental until someone can prove otherwise. The line of sight issues seem fundamental to their pre calculated tiles. The path finding issues, if big studios with infinitely larger resource pools can't make quality path finding for simplistic RTS's, I don't see how BF is going to pull it off with one guy being the brains behind everything and the game itself being something "slightly" more than a basic RTS. The standard stance that "We are something more than a basic RTS" is not an excuse. That does seem to be a pre-canned response to criticism by the way. That because our game is so complex these things are to be expected. I think part of the issue is that Charles is the only guy coding the game and providing solutions to problems. Two heads are always better than one and I am sure there have been instances in the development where having more programmers to tackle a problem would have provided more points of view and ultimately more and in some cases a better approach to solve that problem. You have to understand my disappointment with SF is as great as it is, due to my love of the CMx1 games and my lofty expectations for CMx2. At the end of the day my question is this. You haven't invented a hover board, so why the hell did you try to reinvent the wheel. Everyone would have been very happy for the same functionality with modern graphics.

I agree with this statement, but not the implications of it. Hiding things from me in CMAK or CMBB was fine because that was the game. That is what you expected. CMSF may be 100x more complex, and it may do things 100x better, but because it is more transparent, when you do see these things they are INFINITELY more frustrating. When a squad in CMBB was broken or routed or even eliminated from a rubbled house, you were not worried about if the tracers were hitting accurately. You weren't worried about it because the game was played on a much grander scale of abstraction. In SF when an MG team fires through a row of buildings and kills a squad of infantry, well this is an entirely different ball park. When the game is played at a 1:1 level and then LoS is not functioning in a similar fashion that is a situation that is far more difficult to reconcile. It is difficult to reconcile this because your mind is being told 1:1, no abstraction. Then you watch tracers fly through a block or two of buildings and wipe out a squad. I wouldn't say that LoS is a fundamental problem, but it could be. I don't know if the problems we are seeing now are possible to fix, and forgive me for being a realist, but you would say that it is fixable ;p

I disagree with you. I learn something new all the time when playing games including wargames. I still have "AH HA!" moments. I admit that pure strategy games are probably better. Any game that forces to you plan, balance and execute can be as challenging as you are willing to make it. Only shooters are mindless. </font>

Hey, I'll say someone completely absurd and then wait for everyone to slap me on the back for saying something completely not intelligent!

When, and only when LOS is not abstracted I might think about purchasing another Battlefront title. I don't understand the decision to represent the game at the 1:1 level and then decide to abstract LOS. Bullets flying through the ground, through walls and through multiple buildings is unacceptable. So, I will check the game out several patches down the road, and see if these LOS issues have been resolved. My hunch, however, is that this is a design decision made by the programmer as some sort of MacGuyver fix. The entire LoS system in this game is a total fiasco so that is why my money is on the latter rather than the former, and no I am not talking about a proper LoS tool.

There is no reason for a LOS tool. LOS is abstracted in this game. In spite of the 1:1 representation of soldiers. This leads to infuriating situations where an MG fires from 200 yards away, through the middle of a 4 story building and kills an entire squad. It is quite possibly the oddest way to design a game I have ever seen. The game seems to be checking LoS based on this abstraction. It then determines if an object is in the path. If the abstraction says there is LoS, then you shoot through the ground, walls, buildings, trenches, the list goes on. If it decides LoS is obstructed, then objects become solid. The LoS issues in this game are a major step backwards from CMX1 and I hope that they can fix this in future patches. The LOS in this game even with the 1:1 representation is less flexible, less precise and down right clunky. Clunky is rather generous. Unplayable would be more accurate.

I won't play over half the provided scenarios because WEGO is not functional in the way it should and they are not enjoyable in RT due to the scale of the battle. Really looking forward to a thriving scenario building community ;p

I did the mission with minimal casualties (at least what I consider minimal). I believe it was 6 KIA x2ish WIA. Half of those from one squad that was reduced to 1 man. No Javelins used. What I did was advance my Strykers abreast to within approximately 50 meters of the wall. I then popped smoke on the Styker which housed my platoon HQ. They dismounted and the bad guys opened up. Immediately they were remounted and we stood back and hammered on the units that had uncovered their position. Once the return fire ceased I dismounted the entire platoon and moved them up to the trench in front of the wall. I continued to wack-a-mole any Syrian defenders that shot back with the GL's. When the second platoon arrived I had them move quickly into the trench in front of the wall as well. I felt that at this point the majority of their forward defenders were broken or dead, so I ordered one squad on an assault through a breach towards the buildings near the gate. They came under fire from an RPG team and I took heavy casualties on that squad. I repositioned a Stryker and had a second squad blast a hole for it to hammer the suspected culprits. On the right I looped a squad down the length of the wall towards the two buildings towards the back right of the map. Those two small one story buildings had both had their forward facing walls blown out by the GL's and the men firing from those positions were silenced. I then ordered the remaining infantry through 2 gaps to assault or quickly move into the first floor of the hospital as well as the hospitals right most wing. I took a couple more hits entering the hospital but the shooters were quickly silenced and I pressed two squads towards the roof while the HQ's consolidated the middle floors. Two strykers then exploited the security my lone squad on the right and towards the enemies rear was providing. They drove around behind the hospital and shut down any tom foolery the AI might have been plotting in the rear left. The remainder of my casualties came when I assaulted the left most wing of the hospital. One squad took serious damage as it ran out into the street before re-entering the complex. Shortly after this I won a total victory.

I played this scenario today as well. I think we had slightly differing approaches ;p

Oh, I thought I'd also mention how I approached this scenario. SPOILER!!! Well, I took stock of my assets and looked at what I was going to assault. I felt it was fairly obvious that someone or something would be in the minaret. This however was not so important, at least not initially. I noticed that I had 2 120 MM mortars and that coincidently there were two small clusters of buildings on each flank of the primary objective. Noting that these buildings were of little significance, I ordered my Mortars to level them. I then had all of my infantry move up to the river bed and line up along the edge (slight LoS abstraction allowing) and issued cover arc orders over the central buildings. I felt confident that any resistance in or around those outlying buildings would be quashed so I ignored them. Once I felt that I had adequate covering fire, I ordered one squad on my left forward to approach the closest buildings in the central cluster. After moving perhaps 30 yards they came under heavy fire from the central building and some of the surrounding buildings. This squad was ultimately reduced to 1 single man. I then poured lots of suppressive fire into the buildings, directing direct fire onto targets as they made themselves visible. While I did this I moved two squads up on the right. I took light casualties as I moved on the right side of the central clump of buildings, until an MG team and an irregular squad opened up from the far right in a two story building. At the same time my sweeping action on the left came under fire from the lone survivor of an RPG team who was stationed in one of the leveled buildings on my left flank. I was able to pin the MG team and the irregulars on my right with a focused fire with my BTR's. I then resumed the push in from the right into the central buildings. The minaret finally belched to life but was quickly silenced. Taking the administrative building and its surrounding area was achieved easily. The only point of resistance was now that MG team with its supporting irregular infantry in the two story on the right. Pouring fire in from many directions they finally threw in the towel. All in all easily the most enjoyable scenario I have played it. The key I think for me was leveling those flanking buildings. After the battle was over and I reviewed the map it became apparent that had they been left alone I would have taken much more than 4 KIA and 19 wounded ;p

The Louch, I see you are dallying over your current scenario. I would like to inform you that your fawning fans would urgently like you to get back into the scenario editor and provide us, your fan base, with no less than 2 red on red scenarios per day. Thank you very much!

Here is why QB's are broken. I just tried to play a tiny QB, Syrian SF vs Syrian Light Infantry on the village setting. My force consisted of 4 Kornet launchers and a platoon HQ. Right.

Is it possible for this to be hosted else where? I don't really want to sign up on some website to DL it.

I am terribly disappointed overall. I've been anticipating this title for years. There may be a light at the end of the tunnel. The game has the potential to be great, but I for one don't know if what doesn't work is actually fixable. I've played the game *lots* since the 27th. I've tried to love it, I've tried very hard. Things like sketchy LoS. Terrible AI pathing decisions, when you have held its hand and given it a very precise set of way points to follow. Non-existent AI. The AI doesn't do anything. You attack and destroy it in place. It's attacks are boneheaded and brainless. It trickles units in slowly to get cut up. QB's. The AI doesn't work in these at all, AI plans must not be loading because there is even less AI behavior in these than in scenarios. Force selection. Now, I don't particularly care that I can't select what I am playing with directly. However, when I select Medium Mechanized Infantry, I'd like to see what that encompasses. I spent 45 minutes loading quick battles with various Syrian troop load outs trying to find something that was playable. Last and perhaps the most important. The game as advertised as Wego and realtime. Yet only realtime is available online.

</font>