Yair Iny

Mike, I challenge you to let one thread with the word IDF in its title go by without a negative comment As to who foots the bill, it's more complicated than that. The US gives Israel around $3B a year in military aid. The majority of it has to be spent on US-produced goods, hence we were issued uniforms that were made in Texas rather than in Israel, while the Israeli factory that used to make uniforms was shut down. So I doubt that at an accounting level, these APCs were funded by US money. However, that money of course frees up other money from Israel's own contribution to its military budget, so you're not all wrong there. At the end of the day, the US gives military aid for its own strategic and political purposes and if you disagree with those purposes you should vote for someone who disagrees too Cheers

BD, how does the T50 threaten the F22 exactly? If anything having a stealth AC increases your offensive capability, not your defensive. Besides, if the US needs to worry at all it is only about Russia. While Russian AC are quite good, they never seemed to perform well in the hands of their old client nation-states. At the end of the day, it is more about skill and training than about the AC. As to the 8-1 for F22 vs F15/16, I would imagine the F22 is flown by, on average, the best fighter pilots in the USAF, which allows its tech advantage to come into play. The Syrian AF, on the other hand, barely flies any training flights nowadays, what the hell would they do with a sophisticated stealth AC? Have it shot down by the Israelis?

Given that Syria nearly invaded Jordan in the 70s and that the US just sold a whole bunch of Javelins to the Jordanians, AND that they use humvees, they'd be way more blue than red. Maybe they could be played by Marines

What about Javelins??? Can there be an option to keep them in? Please???

I know nothing about this first hand of course, but I'd say there's a hint in the name, i.e. DRIVER'S rear view camera

Why is this so hard to understand? Syrians can't split squads just like an M1A1 can't fly. It's simply not done. The syrian army, especially the regular army is a very different beast to anything someone from the West thinks about. When I was in the IDF, my battalion used to rotate into the Golan Heights, and the recon elements used to monitor Syrian positions on the other side using long-range optics. One of the things I heard from them that illustrates this point, is that the officers used to regularly beat enlisted men, one only assumes it was as punishment for this or that refraction. Sure, it would be great if the squad leader could send one guy to look round the corner, I'm sure that is realistic. But splitting squads allows you to do so much more and I for one think it is realistically not allowed for regular Syrians.

What's your point? Of course the USSR won the war, but the Tiger was still superior to the T34 at range, was it not? Would the fighting not have been easier for the Soviets if the T34 WAS able to penetrate the frontal armour of the Tiger at range?

Combat Mission: The Sideshow Hey, it would sell well in Russia with that title

Ali-Baba, the nukes aren't there to save the day, they are there to end the day But on a more serious note, Israel did alright even before the US started supporting it in the late 60s, it's per-capita income is far higher than any of its neighbours, it's economic base is light industry and knowledge skills as opposed to natural resources and labour intensive industries. I believe Israel would still be the strongest regional power even without the $3,000,000,000 annual US contribution (not to belittle that contribution). Political support is another thing, but then it is in the West's interest that Israel continues to exist, so that's not likely to change unless the West really declines. But then if it does, who cares about political support, it's only the West that even considers intervening in anyone else's business a-la Kosovo. Can't really see China or Russia invading Israel because the UN security council passed a resolution condemning it for killing Palestinians, they couldn't care less.

Vark, Intent is all well and good, but over time and repeated civilian deaths, you can forgive those who might lose the distinction. The thousands of Afghani "collateral damage" victims care naught about the lack of intent on the part of the US to kill them. As to the IDF operation in Gaza, at some point indifference is a shade of intent, do you not agree? When one drinks and drives we do not charge them with murder when they kill someone on the road, but they are definitely more guilty than a sober driver. As Emerson said "What you do speaks so loud, I cannot hear what you say." (a very timely google homepage quote of the day, lest anyone think I am really that erudite )

Well, you could say it already does. Reinforcements can simulate air assaulting troops, while close air support from choppers simulates, well, close air support from choppers. As to actually having choppers seen in game, flying in and possibly being shot down, that's a no, and BFC have said they will not support it. For good reason, IMHO, as it is really no limitation on the sort of scenarios you can simulate and the coding time could be spent elsewhere more usefully.

Smaragdadler, you are correct. The story of the Khazars is well known to me, and in the past 60 years, Jews were brought to Israel from Ethiopia and Yemen. I meant this in a more general sense looking back over 3000 years. The period you are talking about is relatively short and is an exception to the fact that Judaism is in general a non proselytising religion, as opposed to Christianity and Islam which could be said are based on converting others. Also, bear in mind that being the largest monotheistic religion doesn't mean much given that Islam didn't exist and Christianity was in its infancy

Because due to their religion, they neither proselytised nor assimilated, so neither grew nor disappeared, instead remaining a visible, somewhat aloof minority. It didn't help of course that Christianity evolved from Judaism and that the Jews had at least some part in Jesus' killing by the Romans, nor did it help that for centuries Christians weren't allowed to lend money (at least not with interest), which you can imagine made Jewish money lenders very popular Hey, some people, even in this forum, have used the phrase "Jew Bankers" in the past

Lethaface, Bolteg, I have to disagree with the whole "civilised" vs "uncivilised/primitive" angle, when it comes to the West vs Arabs in general or Israel vs Palestinians in particular. It is a real bugbear of mine. I have first hand knowledge of how Palestinians (and Israeli Arabs) live, from my time in the IDF and from previously living in Israel for many years. Arabs live in very family oriented society in which loyalty is first to one's family, then to one's immediate neighbourhood and only later to the more abstract structures such as nation, government etc. We see that as primitive but that is the core strength of their society. For example, rarely will an Arab family go hungry unless everyone else around them is hungry too (as in Gaza for the past 3 years). Contrast this with Western urban society. As to the supposed "barbarism" of their fighting ways, i.e. suicide bombings, targeting civilians, not letting the red cross access prisoners (e.g. Gilad Shalit). It all looks good at first glance. But then you need to remember that a. they have not the means to target the military in any effective manner, b. the war to them is far more total than it is for the average Israeli (and of course, the average American/European), c. with all its "civilisation", the West has killed far more civilians than the Arabs have (in Iraq, Afghanistan, etc.) Israel killed (not purposefully, as some here like to claim, but rather mostly through indifference) more Palestinian civilians in one month during "Cast Lead" than the Palestinians did since suicide bombings commenced circa 1992. Is that more civilised than a guy blowing himself up in a bus? At face value, yes, but if you really think about it, it is only more clinical to kill with artillery or bombs, but not one bit more civilised.

He he, nice one Yankee Dog. You know, HOI3 has the option to use nuclear weapons. I would be interested to know what PC attachment you'd have for that, perhaps something that attaches to your microwave as well?

Lethaface, I agree with your overall sentiment regarding settlements, but factually, Israel withdrew from the entire Gaza strip and destroyed all settlements that were inside it. There are no soldiers or settlers there at all. The army has basically made some parts of it that are close to the border fence a no-mans-land, and Israel maintains full control of the borders around Gaza with Egypt's cooperation.

Don't we? Not in front of game now, but doesn't the first US Army campaign mission have those barriers in the middle of the wide road on the left?

Sorry, I'm just going to have to disagree with that and leave it there...

Yeah, looks like sixkiller's got lots of christmas cheer in him. Megan Fox and Ferraris, can't wait to see what's next

Vark, no I have not read any of the books you have mentioned. Which "The Iron Wall" is it? Avi Shlaim or Lenni Brenner's? I found two on Google looking for it. Last book I read about anything close to the subject was "Captives in Lebanon" by Ofer Shelah and Yoav Limor. It is an inquisitive look at the decision making and execution of the Lebanon war. When it gets translated into English, I would recommend it to anyone with an interest in what happened. Ali Baba, Agree about the differences, but they are far more than just volumes. For all its faults, the state of Israel isn't driven by an ideology that sees other races of people as biologically inferior and thus needing to be exterminated. Many millions of people (not only Jews), were not only "killed" but actually "exterminated" in much the same difference as you hitting a cockroach with your shoe or fumigating the house. The IDF unfortunately support the settlers whose ideology I find abhorrent, but there is a vast underlying difference about the driving force. Despite the irony I sometimes feel at the name, given the actions, the IDF is still primarily the "Israel DEFENCE Force", I don't think anyone has any illusions about how long Jews would be alive in Israel if the Arabs ever beat the IDF in a real war, like they almost did in 73. Last I remember, about 15% of Israeli citizens are Arabs and there are 3.5 million living Palestinians in the occupied territories.

The Vulture, Just thought I'd chime in to say thanks for a riveting AAR. Cheers

Fair enough mate, I may have been too defensive when I read your post. What pisses me off is that when I used to live in Israel and even now when I speak to Israeli friends, I am extremely critical of the IDF's conduct and of the past governments' policies. But when I read some of the hyperbole around here, with people almost making out the IDF to be the worst perpetrators of war crimes in history, I get a bit jumpy maybe. I was there, I cringed at a lot of the stuff we were doing, especially when I was in the reserves. It felt wrong, and it made a small, but concrete contribution to my decision to leave Israel. But it was nowhere near being as bad as it is portrayed by some people in this forum and elsewhere.

Seriously? Someone actually went to the trouble of making a Australian localisation and not a generic US English one? I mean, how big could the Aussie market possibly be for a game of this kind?

Oh yeah Ali-Baba, cause the IDF definitely committed more atrocities than the Wehrmacht or the Red Army (or the US Army in WW2 for that matter), no doubt. After all, the good Landser boys were only fighting for the fatherland. I mean, against all odds they defeated the Poles, the Dutch, the Belgians, and of course they had nothing to do with the Holocaust or the Nazi Party. That was the SS boys, but really, not the Waffen-SS, they were brave and only slightly misguided, oh, and their uniforms are so cool. I am ex-IDF, so take this with a grain of salt. But in all honesty, this is really ridiculous. The IDF is far from perfect. It makes mistakes, it is far too careless, in my opinion, when it comes to protecting civilian lives, and on the odd occasion it even does bad things on purpose, such as using WP rounds in Gaza or bombing Lebanon with cluster munitions for no real reason, etc. But the fact of the matter is that NATO armies are killing far more civilians in Afghanistan, the Russians killed far more in Chechnya and the list goes on. I'm not even going to start comparing them to Hamas and the Palestinian Authority, to Hizballah and Iran. My real problem with the IDF is that it is active in supporting the illegal settlements in the West Bank (and previously in Gaza), that it applies a double standard in terms of upholding law in those territories (they are under martial law, not regular Israeli Law), and that they dominate Israeli politics with the Military mindset, both in active service and later on, as senior IDF officers retire, through Parliamentary politics. But anyway, this thread is a great demonstration of why BFC don't want to step into that mess

Wow Mike, this seems like an almost visceral reaction from you. Anyone mentions the IDF and you immediately pounce Agree with Sergei though, only difference between IDF and other western armies, in CMSF terms, is the different equipment. And other than my own personal experience, I can't really see why, e.g. the Leo is less interesting than the Merkava, etc. Anyway, this has been hashed again and again. BF aren't gonna do it, so no use in asking.