Krautman

Hey Bigduke, i just read some of your posts in the "Soviets in the worst of '43" thread, where you said cmbb afv point costs are in favour of the germans- that also depends on the time period. How many PzIIIJ shorties or IVFs do you get for the same point that you need to buy a T-34 platoon in early 42? Doesn't look like a fair fight either. I guess it was pretty hard for the cm game designers to determine unit point cost, because the actual worth of the units depends on which enemies it meets.

Bigduke6, i see your point, and i understand -and did so before this thread- that "russian" players feel pissed because their tank gun is weaker than they think it should be (whether the cmbb 76,2 actually IS underpowered i do not know, i'm not into ballistics-if it IS underpowered, then, BTS, shame on you! ). However, saying the germans are uber in general is just wrong. The optics aren't that deceisive, and a single grenade bundle and some secs of faster reaction shouldn't increase the price of german infantry that much. Someone said the StuGs are just too cheap- i don't think so. They are just (too?) good at destroying tanks, but lack anti-personnel capacities. But cmbb is a game and it is never reality. There are other issues about historical correctness- from my (very limited) ww2 knowledge, i'd have expected bolt-action rifles to be more effective at ~150-250m, russian infantry being equipped with fewer smgs in the early war (didn't they even have shortages in lmgs and rifles?), and the lmg 34 to be much more powerful-it's plain crap compared to the Bren/ZB 30. In addition, reading Forsythe's "Dogs of War", i'd have expected the MP40 to be at least at par with the Sten. These issues, of course, are not as obvious as an incorrectly impenetrable afv- but in infantry-heavy battles, which i like, these issues make the germans have a really, really hard time, especially 41-42. Since cmbb is a game, players will use any tactic that will make them win, be it wholesale squad splitting, buying KVs and the REGIMENTAL smg cpy as standard choices for '41 QBs or, as germans, taking only StuGs. All of which i consider gamey. If i was playing with you, Bigduke6, i'd agree on not taking 80mm front StuGs and would ask you not to use smg infantry- then we could have a good, balanced game. About german 50mm l/60 AT: You are correct. I know it's not strong enough to penetrate T-34s. I was just saying it is not exactly funny sending Pz III SHORT and rifle inf against T-34s with 70mm turret armour and smg inf. Which is what'll happen if you play a summer '42 QB. So i know what it's like to have your fun spoiled. I've played the board games "Bloodbowl" and "Warhammer Fantasy" for a while, and it was just the same: (nearly) everyone is only interested in winning, not in balanced gameplay for fun. I'd like the next cm game to correctly model all weapons - including the 76,2 - and somehow link infantry prices with/to? their firepower rating. [ March 22, 2005, 12:25 PM: Message edited by: Krautman ]

About the cherry-picking issue- i think it merely depends on which side you prefer to play. JasonC wrote "And those who always use StuGs are just pussies." so i suppose he prefers the Russians. I prefer playing Germans in the "grey" period 41-42, and i'm quite fed up with sending my PzIIIJ short and rifle infantry against T-34M43 and hordes of cheap smg infantry. I always wonder about players complainig about those Über Germans, i somehow feel the CMBB Russians are superiour from 41 to 45 in tanks, infantry and arty. Just calm down, the grass is always greener on the other side.

Yeah, Mahir is just the greatest. If only i had the same mustache.

Great, great links, thanks very much.

I want to do some early war scenarios and would like to know which kind of map is needed to (roughly) recreate the real thing. What was the terrain around Jelnja and Wjasma/Brjansk like? Would a June '41 flat open steppe scenario be correct for the southern area? - BTW, this is my new best friend (link has nothing to do with CM in any way): http://www.istanbul.tc/mahir/mahir/ I kiss you!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I tried this one several times playing as the axis side, but the russians smashed me... My problems: 1) The starting positions: From their starting position, the russians can take the whole village under fire without even having to move. The axis units start further away from the objectives than the soviets, and on the way there, they can easily be taken under fire from the hill to the far right (as seen from axis starting pos.)which belongs to the allied setup zone. Also, there's terrain blocking the way, so it takes more time to get anywhere. 2) The Tanks: PzII and IV won't let you win the armour duel. They cannot render support fire because 1). So you'll have to take the T-34s out with 3) The infantry: If you want them to be in the village before the russians arrive, you really have to hurry. As soon as the infantry has reached it, they are exhausted and need time to recover. But since the russian infantry is superiour in numbers and firepower, you need the tanks to support. Which they can't do, because 1). If you don't rush, you'll arrive after the russian infantry because 1) and get smashed. Once the russian infantry has taken control of the village, the tanks can follow without fear of grenade bundles. The forested terrain enables infantry to take out tanks, but it also brings the russian close quarters firepower to bear. If the allied player keeps his tanks away from the village, it gets pretty hard for the axis to take them out at all, especially as the KV-1s arrive. But you have to take them out, because they can cover the whole village... A nice map and a good force mix! I'd really like to win this one. How do i do that? I have tried flanking moves, rushes and careful approaches, but had no luck.

Maybe i missed the point in my post. I just wanted to say there's a book saying that the Nazis did something to offer "better" schooling to the poor and "seduced" the lower classes by improved social care. I did not want to idealise anything nor do i believe germany was IN FACT a classless society. I think just as well as everyone else around here that the Nazis ruined everything, please don't mistake me for a Hitler-Fan.

Believe it or not, i once had one of these take out a T-34. Some PzIIILs in the front line drew the T-34's fire, and the HT popped up in the flank and got a hit with hc ammo. What a good luck...

BTW, if you study medieval history in germany nowadays, you will sooner or later come across a certain work about long-distance trade and medieval marketplaces ("Der mittelalterliche Stapelplatz", iirc), written in 1938/39. Somehow it is - after maybe 100s of comparable publications - still regarded as the best work treating this certain topic (It is free from any kind of ideology-pure historical science).

Just a few days ago, there was an interesting newspaper report, announcing a newly-written book about the Nazis' "social-political seduction" of the german people. While germany had always been a society strictly divided into different social classes since 1871, and even the Weimar republic could not soften those class borders, the Nazis actually managed to do so. They did e.g. not demand a war tax from the lower classes in the early days (as you know, the living standard in germany was comparably high throughout the war) and introduced several social welfare programs, among them improved schooling especially for working-class and peasant children (presumably to educate them "in the right way"...). Their (official) ideology was that it was your skill that mattered, not your social class ("Volksgemeinschaft"). [ March 12, 2005, 03:32 AM: Message edited by: Krautman ]

Ok! Notify us when your scenario is finished and where to get it! cheerio

Hey Painfbat, i didn't want to keep you from researching those names- I wasn't hurt at all, i was just adding my 2 cents, you shouldn't care much about what a single forum member says! I guess there are lots of guys around here who would indeed appreciate such a thoroughly researched historical scenario. But i guess the names are just pretty hard/impossible to find out, that's probably why no one has come up with an answer to your question. Nevertheless, CM always needs scenario designers - that's why it's still such a famous series. So keep up the work!

My 2 cents: While it's surely a great thing to have the correct historical names included in a historical scenario, it somehow seems inappropriate to me. Sorry, but several family members have been killed or heavily injured and i wouldn't want to see them included in a game that people play for fun. I love playing CM, but i would never show it to my grandfather. Michael Wittmann, of course, may always be included!

Tero, a "Motti" is thé finnish equivalent of a german "Kesselschlacht"/cauldron/pocket, right?

iirc that's exactly what it is- a meeting engagement does not allow pre-planned strikes, presumably because info on the terrain was not available to the arty guys as it would have been in a fixed-frontlines-situation.

Where can I find "Task Force Stark"?

thx. GreenAsJade: I can only play vs AI, but am just as well interested in 2-player scens.

Hi, i'd like to have some info about those downloadable cmak scenarios that you like best, and where to find them. I prefer early war scenarios, but mid or late would also be ok. Is there a real classic like "Eisen-Faust" or "Our backs to the Volga" for cmbb?

WHAT IN THE NAME OF CHRIST IS THIS? Bone Vulture, I thought you were strictly against any kind of comedy in the forum? Remember the Kamikaze-Paratroopers? ( http://www.battlefront.com/cgi-bin/bbs/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=23;t=010377 ) ? You were the last one i would have suspected to do such a post- it is almost

I said "music", not "teeny-kitsch-pop"!

Most probable reasons: 1) Finland has had an active gaming culture for the past several decades, with several revered magazines that have been around all this time. 2) A rather high amount of internet connections per capita. 3) Our participation in WW2, and the mandatory military service we have today both probably increase our interest towards war games. </font>

Well, i just read that ole "Greatest SMG of WWII" thread, and imho, the Beretta is the greatest, at least in CM! Puny firepower, but squads equipped with it have such a high ammo rating (-Italian Parachute SMG). How come? Could you use it in single-fire mode to save ammo?

Great answers! Another question: How come there's so many Finns around here besides the plain vanilla North Americans that seem to make up the bulk of CM players?

Thanks cassidy, finally someone answered the original question! Will be appreciated. BTW, i now know what "vanilla" means (besides talking about spices; e.g. saying "vanilla german rifle infantry"), but where does this term come from?