Terif

Totally agree with you SeaMonkey - this discussion is much more relevant how to make the future expansions/games better and to learn from the predecessors . WaW is pretty much balanced for the not so experienced players, i.e. the main player base - changing things now at the end of the developement cycle for the more experienced players (which there are more now, but still not the majority..) most likely only would result in imbalances at other places (especially if Egypt gets changed there will be a major disturbance of balance..), reduce attractiveness for new players and open a can of worms...Nevertheless Tac bombers could in deed use some nerfing, like reducing their base attack value and/or removing escorts. So what can we learn for the future ? SC2 has the perfect balance of units and strategies in a clean and proper environment where you can fight everywhere on the whole map. WaW offers more historical realism and a high variety of unit types but has problems with balancing those units and also some of the areas are dead/problematic for combat. This is because of the transportation system - operating can be too easily prevented by destroying just 1-2 key locations and in the desert/northern part of the map there is no usable railroad system from the beginning. So for the future I think it would for one be useful to make transportation (=operating) easier and not so much dependent on the main rails (would be even more realistic since turns represent weeks/months, so even without a main railroad line there are always enough possibilities/roads/smaller rails etc. to move in reality a unit accross land to a destination) and this way give more options where to fight and open areas for possible combat. A second thing we can learn is to make a wide variety of unit types like players obviously like, but take care some of them won´t single out and become superweapons. Especially in the later stages of the game there needs to be some mechanism that counters the steadily increasing attack/defence values. Today they are leading to at the end massacres where 1-2 attacks are enough to destroy a unit. But with time in reality also the defence gets improved and that doesn´t necessarily mean the attacker takes more damage, but more that the defenders losses get reduced. In other words I see the necessity to introduce a new and so far different tech ability: so far tech can only increase losses for both sides, there should also be techs that decrease losses. In reality it is always the race between technologys for attack and techs neutralising those new attack possibilites, providing better protection. So it should also be in the game: developing of better attack possibilities, but also means to better protect the units against new weapons/tactics, i.e. reducing these additional losses.

@Sombra: Well - as you obviously noticed : WaW is for experienced players not really much fun if you play the same scenario too often - WaW just has too many possible exploits when you have learned how the game works (solve Tac bombers within the WaW mechanics and you create tons of new problems...+ can just continue with the next loopholes/superunits like tanks/strategic bombers/subs/rails etc..) ...which is why IMO it is more for normal casual players and for single player where you have many different maps you can (and should) choose from and play. Better not to only concentrate on Fall Weiss - this gets boring too fast and luck has certainly too much influence as that you could really measure your strength with somebody in multiplayer. WaW (+ the other expansions) come with many more maps - use them . If you want to have real (and pretty much endless) multiplayer fun, play SC2 . P.S.: for the normal not so experienced players WaW seems to be pretty much balanced (they usually don´t know how to hold Egypt for instance or how to effectively use Tac bombers and the other potential superunits...and as long as these are not used to their full potential they are fine as they are - which is also why they got implemented this way in the first place since the common players demanded them to be how they are now so they could have more fun) - and that was the original intend of WaW to provide fun with the new units/maps/game mechanic for the average player and make it attractive to them...which I think it achieved .

The good thing in SC2 is there are no superweapons - all unit types are well balanced and for every strategy there is a possible counter . Airfleets in SC2 can´t become the killers Tac bombers in WaW are, simply because they take too many losses for this during battle and can be countered by enemy air. Especially later in the war when air gets higher tech, aircombat becomes expensive and also effectively eliminates the collection of much experience since after 1-2 airbattles and reinforcing, the experience collected during the last years will be gone - positive consequence of the dual role of airfleets both for bombing and aircombat. Even when attacking ground units unopposed by enemy air, in average they loose as much mpps as the target they attack if that is also HQ supported. The defender can do stupid things - especially concerning the placement of his troops (e.g. in swamps) so this may not be the case, but that´s his fault then . With high experience airfleets loose a bit less, while they are still training they loose a lot more - so it always needs to be well considered if an airstrike is worth the mpps spent for it. To attack enemy ground units only with air is usually foolish and much too expensive / wasting good turns of clear weather for nothing...someone using his air primarily in this role only makes the enemy happy . The main purpose of airstrikes in SC2 is to reduce enemy morale and entrenchment so ground units can engage and eliminate them - otherwise airstrikes make not so much sense and often cost more than they bring benefit. Especially when attacking fortified positions airfleets have a pure support role for ground troops and are seldomly able to kill units on their own...even if all of them are concentrated against a single spot. In WaW one of the problems is the breaking down of airfleets into several subunit types, making each of them very strong in its respective field. So e.g. Tac bombers don´t have to engage in airfights any more due to fighters protecting them (be it by escorts or forced intercepts...) and with the much higher base attack values they are now natural born killers from the beginning... The number of these kind of "atomic weapons" is not the real problem, but that their role on the battlefield has changed: In SC2 they have a support role for the own ground troops and kill enemy units only as an exception under the right circumstances. In WaW they are now primarily the perfect unit killers from half accross the battlefield like the fist of god...and supporting ground units by reducing enemy morale before an attack got irrelevant for them (for this task are artillery/rockets etc. used). Best solution here would be to just merge them back together to the airfleets from SC2 - problem of the Tac bombers solved . Same applies to many other problems WaW has with competitive multiplayer games...remove the changes and convert it back to how it was handled in SC2 and all these things go away...but that makes no real sense since SC2 still exists. So why trying to turn WaW into something it is not ? Just would cripple its strength in single player and most likely still not make it into a comparably good multiplayer platform like SC2 already is. Especially with new expansions coming out every few months, it would be pretty hard to make them all balanced for competitive multiplayer anyway. Better to have in SC2 a reliable platform for exciting competitive multiplayer battles and use the expansions in the way they are supposed to be used: SC2 is optimal for competitive multiplayer. WaW+Expansions are best suited for (historical oriented) single player and also casual multiplayer battles on diversified maps. As long as the single players for which WaW originally got developed are happy with how it is and you also can play enough scenarios in multiplayer from time to time too for new experiences, IMO there is not much reason for changes .

Well, going against anti-air protected spots could be expensive for attacking tac bombers...if they would do it ...but AA are very limited in numbers and a good commander simply doesn´t attack where they are with air. Tac bombers with their range have enough other targets to destroy that don´t cost them. Or if the attacker wants a certain position he just uses fast ground troops or paratroopers first to destroy the anti-air units which have no defence against them and then the tac bombers make short process of the rest of the defenders... But a common tactic if someone is so crazy trying to defend in Russia before the Urals are reached is anyway to just remove the key units (= killing the HQs + railroad guards with a few airstrikes) and then mopping up the rest of the defending task force with ground troops. If necessary, loosing a few Tac bomber strength points against AA opposition is more than worth the destruction of entire task forces pretty much for free afterwards...Defence on the eastfront simply doesn´t work in WAW anymore when the players reached a certain skill level and know where to attack and in which order with what unit types. Fall Weiss in WaW is just not really suited for competitive multiplayer games of experienced players. But that´s no real problem - since the pretty much perfect multiplayer game already exists with the perfectly balanced original SC2 with nearly endless possible strategies - the strength of WAW and the other expansions is IMO single player mode where all the additions, more historical accurracy, details and micromanagement (that also lead to much longer games) have a positive influence and enhance the gameplay...and not so experienced players can also have fun in casual multiplayer games in the different scenarios .

Main reason why holding Africa as Allies is so lucrative in WAW is because of the too narrow gap of El-Alamein which makes it very easy for them to defend Egypt and also the lack of railroads in the area so Axis reinforcements landing further west can´t operate to the front so it is very easy to prevent Axis from sending troops to Africa in the first place by a naval blockade. So to nerf this - for multiplayer pretty much "must do" strategy - and bring back some more variety at least in this aspect, just these 2 issues need to be adressed . Concerning the list of possibilities: - reducing BEF or not makes no difference, just delays it one turn...but Allies have all the time in the world, so it doesn´t matter if or if not - UK transfer to Canada: would make the situation even much worse since then UK would still have the same benefits of a Med strategy (lots of ressources, exposed Axis underbelly) but now had zero risk when sending everything to Africa as then they can not surrender any more. As long as the capital transfers to Egypt, UK has to hold it and risks surrender if not. If that would change, then UK could just do whatever it wants without any possibility for Axis to punish them for their actions (by forcing a surrender). Therefore: pretty bad idea - Cap TB upgrades: different topic - has not much to do with Egypt (would make it even easier for Allies to defend Egypt against the german tac bombers...). But for the overall game (and modders) a very good idea if it is now possible to implement that their research cap is independent from the other units. Tac bombers are simply too strong and later in the game pretty much like an atomic bomb, destroying everything in 1-2 shots...but limiting it to just lv 2 would only be a drop in the ocean... Tac bombers are just the all-mighty superweapon in WAW... - and so removing escorts for them would also not help that much since then they may take some damage if attacking alone (nevertheless still beeing able to destroy their targets easily)..but good human players let their own fighters attack first anyway and so deplete the enemy interceptors, so this is usually not a factor and therefore pretty much irrelevant for Multiplayer one way or the other . In general I would like to see the possibility to REDUCE damage by applying certain techs and therefore making defending something at the main fronts an option again also in the later stages of the game if units have a better resistance to damage (which could also be used to put tac bombers back in place so they are not the super weapon any more they are today if their targets could be made more damage resistant) - there should be a balance between offence and defence which isn´t there at the moment. So far attack/defence values only increase with higher techs and the damage done to one side or the other just gets higher and higher until 1-2 shots are enough to kill any defender no matter which terrain they are in.... Combined with the unit flood in WAW and even more the double strike capability of (too) many units (making entrenchment obsolete), the attacker is usually extremely in the advantage. Which makes putting up defence lines - especially in Russia (also because of the necessity of rails for operating units..) - foolish and unfortunately lastly results in just one viable possible strategy for Multiplayer between veteran players. With at the end one gigantic bloodbath where within a few turns hundreds of units bite the dust...last man standing wins...making (weather/research) luck and who is having more ressources the deciding factors who wins the war...and not who has the better strategy like it should be in a strategy game.

Seems you need to have a closer look at the research section : Research Anti-Air tech, upgrade your AA Batteries + position them at the right places and the enemy planes will fall down from the sky like a mild summer rain...

Concerning your original question what the differences are between SC2, WaW and PDE: SC2 is the original game, enhanced by the 2 expansions WaW and PDE. Therefore to play the expansions you also need SC2. But once they are on your computer they are treated like separate games, which means also that scenarios can only be played with the program they are made for (SC2 scenarios with SC2, WaW scenarios with WaW etc.). The differences between them are in short: - SC2 is the main pillar with its campaigns situated in central Europe WW2 (1939-1945/47). Clean and easy interface/movement/spotting rules, comparably fast scenarios and the standard Fall Weiss campaign perfectly balanced for competitive Multiplayer battles which makes it also perfectly suited if you want to play against other human players and put your strategic abilities to the test. Bonus: World map Global Conflict - WaW is much more detailed with roads/rails etc, also breaking down the unit types, making out of one SC2 unit now 2-3 WaW units. Scenarios can be/are also a lot larger concerning terrain. AI has been improved a lot - making it the perfect choice for long singleplayer battles against the AI. Bonus: spanish civil war scenario starting 1936 - PDE more covers the post WW2 era, with different potential conflicts of Russia vs USA. Even larger scenarios possible/included, AI further improved. Mostly completely different scenarios than SC2 and WaW. The expansion of your choice after you played SC2/WaW and couldn´t get enough from them and want a new challenge ...also perfect to play against the AI where it doesn´t matter how long you need to complete a turn... P.S.: Soon there will be a third expansion, covering the war in the Pacific against Japan

Malta is very easy if Axis is willing to commit the necessary ressources to take it: Just pound city and port to zero with ships/bombers. Then the defender can only reinforce to strength 4. With a few tac bombers it will be removed in no time - at str 4 even one airstrike with an upgraded tac bomber (don´t forget: anti-tank tech increases its strike power a lot) can then be enough to finish it off...if you do it right it will fall within 2 turns - 3-4 max if you send only minimal forces to take it.

Denmark is pretty much the easiest country to conquer: Just use some airfleets to eliminate the defender (4 hours of Luftwaffe circling...) and then move a corps into the capital (place it at the border - don´t forget it needs motorization) and Denmark surrenders immediately - works 100% of the time if you do it in clear weather. Air-Naval interaction (and also navy pounding ground troops): don´t place your units at the coast, they simply shouldn´t be there unless you want to lure enemy ships into a trap of course - what you did is just a beginner mistake. Especially never place air units where enemy ships can reach them with their cannons unless you have a damn good reason...same goes btw for never placing air in range of ground units or they will simply get overrun . Naval combat: As long as your navy is inferior, you should evade the enemy and change positions fluidly so he can´t catch you. If you don´t do it and go in frontal assault mode, then you will get units lined up along each other and your fleet sunk within a few hours of combat . But if you do it right, then you will get a fluid naval battle where the smaller fleet has to wait for the right times with usually several small skirmishes in order to diminish the enemy naval power before any major actions can start...and never forget: scouting/reconnaissance with your air/carriers is key to naval victory .

Original SC2 Version: In 1939 the war began that should ravage Europe for nearly 4 years...with Liam´s forces advancing deep into Russia....further as they had ever reached before...until at the gates of Stalingrad the fate of the world got finally decided. Liam´s generals opted for an early LC attack, operating many units west...too many....and so the brave polish defenders went into the offensive, cutting of the invaders from HQ and home country...nearly wiping them out without supply...forcing the german commander to order a halt to the western invasion, having to operate several units including all tanks back to Poland.... ...with such forces present in the region, Romania got greedy...wanting also a slice of the cake...and joined immediately...months before Poland finally had to surrender to the countless enemys invading from all sides. France (June1940 – no free french), Vichy France (July 40) and Spain (Aug/Sept 40) then fell in quick order...with England standing firm against the aggressor, defending its island – delivering small blows every now and then...like against several axis airfleets building their airfields too close to the still british occupied Brest...consequently overrun by british elite soldiers on the ground...14 str points of enemy fighters destroyed in the raid. German priority was Iberia and (re-) producing aircrafts day and night...so in the desert Rommels Afrika Korps arrived very late...also suffering under severe lack of oil and reinforcements...only beeing able to absorb Tunisia (Mai 41) and Vichy Algeria (July 41) into the axis empire before Barbarossa began with Russia declaring war to Axis in August 1941. In Winter 1941 the first big clash of the titans occured not in central Russia where the icy weather forced an artificial cease fire on both sides, but in the hot sands of Egypt....both Russia and Germany had sent their main forces there instead, to fight a desert war for Middle East and Egypt....Egypt falling into Axis hands...not much later liberated by russian tanks, air and bombers flying attacks 24/7....in the end the entire german Afrika Korps with HQ and heavy machinery had to surrender and go into russian prison camps...only a lonely paratrooper unit managed to escape the encirclement battle by flying out accross the russian lines with their prepared planes... In the meantime on the seven seas in best naval tradition, England made clear who is ruling the ocean ....in several large battles around Gibraltar and Marseille most of the italian fleet got sunk, together with Bismark, Graf Spee and Tirpitz....not much later the Baltic is cleared from all german rowing boats...Endresult of the naval battle: 2 UK ships lost...13 Axis ships/subs destroyed – the last surviving italian cruiser hiding in Taranto port till the end of the war. With all Axis forces now concentrated in central Europe and USA not joining before June 1942 – Allies decided to avoid any direct confrontation against the on land and air at that time far superior german forces...waging a partisan war instead by raiding each and every insufficiently defended area on the edges of the axis empire...alienating small nation after nation in the outer rim territories....pulling them into the allied camp one by one...draining the axis ressources while building up themselves. During 1942 Axis forces meanwhile pushed deeper and deeper into Russia...destroying the fortification line at Kharkov-Sevastopol in one of the bloodiest battles of the war....around 40 units destroyed on both sides...until Russia was bleeded out and finally had to retreat the last surviving corps unit ...every other russian soldier in that battle either died or went into prison camp....and so Winter 42/43 for both sides was dedicated to rebuilding their respective combat forces. Spring/Summer 1943: the next axis expansion phase...along the river northeast of Kharkov russian and axis forces are facing each other...during mud and snow shooting with their artillery accross the water whenever they need to warm up and have spare ammunition....now with clear summer weather setting in, the largest air operation of the axis forces begins....10 axis air units start bombing the russian defenders day and night....the first advance accross the river gets stoped cold in its tracks...german tanks and paratroopers destroyed by russian tanks that were waiting out of enemy spotting range as counter reserve...but finally after dishing out some more heavy losses to the invaders, Voronezh falls into enemy hands. All russian tanks though beeing able to retreat into safety after taking several hundred thousand german prisoners . July/August 1943...Still no battles in the west....relying on false intel reports about the allied strength and preparations...the german Führer expects a fast victory against Russia....preparing for a short war instead of building up his forces and strengthening defences first....gives orders to take the city named after the russian leader at all costs – Stalingrad has to be destroyed no matter what....a decision that should cost Axis the war.... Counting on the earlier demonstrated reckless and aggressive behaviour of the axis commander, Allies prepared a Europe wide strike to end the war once and for all: Millions of US and UK soldiers embark on amphibious transports around the world...waiting in front of Albania, Sicily, Marseille, Spain, Portugal, France and northern Germany for their signal...all three allied major nations preparing every available paratrooper in England and Africa for their missions... ...finally in August 1943 Stalingrad falls to Germany after a first bloody battle and the axis armada exposes itself...getting vulnerable...the time for retaliation has come: D-day begins with a massive wave of 6 allied bombers...destroying Berlin and most other cities in western Europe in a firestorm...followed by 11 airfleets pounding the axis defenders from Spain till Germany...UK and US special forces landing all over the Axis empire...within 2 turns encircling or destroying most of the axis forces present in central Europe...dealing a deadly blow to the axis economy, ending the axis ability to produce more war materials in the foreseeable future...in one of the more notable operations occupying the german industrial heart with Hamburg, Essen and Frankfurt...eliminating also any possibility for Axis to both retreat or send reinforcements into the battle with any other city further west either liberated by Allies or bombed to dust. Simultaneously Russia starts its own invasion in Spain and the liberation of the motherland....tanks held in reserve behind Stalingrad and Moskow move full speed to the front, destroying the first row of german forces accross the river and the ones that just conquered Stalingrad...taking Stalins city back....annihilating countless units which are standing in their way...overruning and destroying axis airfleets on the ground.... Threatened to be cut off from their home country and beeing traped in a massive encircled area from Stalingrad till Kharkov, Axis generals at the front unanimously lay down their weapons before any more axis blood gets spilled....and so the war ends with a 2-turn surgical strike . War photographies of the last Axis breaths: Axis defences in France shortly before the 2-turn surgical strike: In turn 1 France gets liberated, first Axis defence line destroyed – full break through in the second turn: Spain and Portugal Invasion: Encirclement Battle of Stalingrad: [ April 26, 2008, 07:35 AM: Message edited by: Terif ]

"- Engineers can no longer Fortify on a Land + Water tile as this prevented naval movement through the tile" This change should be rethought IMO - it may on the first glance be more realistic/historical in order for friendly ships beeing able to move through it, but as it was with fortifying it was always the decision of the fortifying player which way he wanted to go: a good trade off to either fortify it and therefore deny the own ships the moving through or leaving it undefended which had the high risk enemy units would open the entrance and enter the waters behind. This change has a bad and undesired effect now in Multiplayer games as without fortifications no sea entrance can be realistically defended. This will make it extremely easy for e.g. Allies to flood the Baltic with ships and secure the entire northern part of the map since the Denmark entrances can no longer be fortified by Axis. I.e. Allies can easily remove any defender (if Axis even dares to place some there..) and this is a huge disadvantage for Axis vs only a slight (if at all - since this is debatable) historical accurracy win from this change .

Yes, since we are both on different time zones e-mail was the method of choice

Yep - this was a SC2 game, not WaW which covers more the operational level – and Strategic Command 2 is first and foremost about strategy: in which area to send your troops and concentrate firepower to reach superior positions against the enemy . It doesn´t really matter to loose a few task forces if they do their duty to delay the enemy so you can conquer more valuable positions and their sacrifice was not for nothing – Defending Middle East and Africa cost Axis 2 full task forces with their HQs, even mostly destroyed out of supply due to allied air superiority which disrupted axis supply lines behind the front, but while Allies were busy in the desert it also gave Axis the necessary relieve in France (where several allied units got killed around Brest before the survivors except Brest garrison evacuated) and Russia to conquer their strategic goals. Romania seeing the bloodiest battle western Allies ever encountered with several dozen units on both sides fighting a guerilla warfare in the mountains and rough terrain of this since generations contested battleground. Allies combining the forces of all three major nations, bringing also the firepower of up to 15 air units into the fight...but Axis having the advantage of the inner line, beeing able to replace their losses and bringing in reinforcements without hassle....fighting in familiar terrain and for their homes and families...beeing finally victorious An excellent game where it went back and forth – 1940 UK aggressively conquers all of Scandinavia, reducing most of the Axis port cities to ashes.... in 1941/42 Axis advancing at all fronts, reclaiming also the north till all of continental Europe is in their hands from Portugal till Iran...1943 Allies liberating and conquering half of their lost territories, including parts of Scandinavia for some time, Turkey and most of Africa, even entering Balkan with strong troops, forcing Romanias surrender...pushing towards the Axis heart...Allies outproducing Axis 2:1....1944 seeing the demise of the allied power after the allied spearhead in Romania got wiped out in heavy fightings with the in Russia approaching german Wehrmacht forcing them to now garrison their back against an attack from the other direction via Stalingrad-Caucasus ....when later the allied offensive liberating Caucasus - pushing against Stalingrad - began and all of Africa till Cassablanca was connected (only Algier + Tunis still Axis), german Oberkommando gave orders for the final counterstrike...Rommel and his desert foxes landed at Algier, splitting UK and US forces there and breaking the siege, launching their coordinated offensive together with offensives from Istanbul against the turkish capital and 2 task forces operating to Stalingrad, throwing the allied so called liberators back there...with Russia at the edge of surrendering, Allies finally threw in the towel in Winter 1944/45 – longest and among the most exciting games I played so far .

Every player has different preferences and sees history/what is realistic differently. The above mentioned house rule(s) are just the ones most players so far could mutually agree on and are simple to follow - in other words the house rule concerning neutrals that became standard in multiplayer games : just forbid the naval movement of the neutrals that can be misused - easy and simple. But the advantage of a house rule is (in contrary to game mechanics which are fix and will never be able to satisfy everyone): You agree with your current opponent on the ones you want to use before the game - so as long as you two agree, you can use any house rule you both want/prefer and are ok with . Just one thought: Keep it simple - if you make a house rule too complicated, then it creates more problems than it solves (+ it will be difficult to find an agreement with your game partner that satisfies you both)...remember: your opponent in multiplayer is a human beeing, not a computer - so if you make a house rule with several conditions and increments, you will most likely end up with chaos and arguments during the game...even if you find someone that wants to play with such a house rule. P.S: USA needing 1-2 turns to send ships to their islands and/or into attack positions after they entered the war: just see it as the time they need to prepare for war and bring their units into positions...which is even pretty realitic I would say...in any way this is no big deal compared to the complications (like e.g. elimination of the naval war since all enemy (Axis) ships/subs will be found/blocked...so it makes no sense for Axis to invest into their navy) and usual arguments/swear words you or your opponent will have to deal with (e.g. when a neutral US ship blocks Gibraltar, other vital narrow gaps or blocks landing spots for enemy amphibs etc...) if there is no house rule concerning this topic and neutrals can go crazy in the game...at the latest when one player starts discovering how he can exploit the lack of a rule against it, there will be a problem at hand...and the next game the one experiencing the effects of the exploits will most certainly insist on using a house rule against it... which btw is how the standard house rules got developed in the first place and why in the meantime any regular player I know uses them nowadays... :cool: [ February 17, 2008, 01:49 PM: Message edited by: Terif ]

Allied aggression in the Med = Allies invade Iraq P.S.: Since there are many relevant scripts you should know when waging multiplayer war, it is best to get familiar with just opening the script files and take a look yourself - takes usually much less time than to even type the question and press the send button [ February 17, 2008, 12:46 PM: Message edited by: Terif ]