Matias

I was running CMBB - presumably CMBO would do the same... It's like the RAVE code *almost* works, there's just some re-paint or region invalidate command that doesnt get called enough!

Ok, glancing at the threads here its clear that CM in any incarnation is not happy under OSX - however I ran it under the new release of OSX it on my new 17" G4 PowerBook. No problem up to the loading 3D graphics, but unlike other posts I am seeing some graphics. They quickly get blanked out (the same way that would happen if I let my old OS9 machine goto sleep while running CM) however I do see something. The game is clearly running, just the display is wonky. Anybody else have any luck with any configurations or new drivers as suggested? I'd have no problem running all software - anyhints for getting Rave-less Classic to run in a higher res? So close and yet so far... With CM:AK around the corner I have extra motivation!

Thanks guys, My problem was not that I wanted to cross that crest, but that I *had* to because the battle was an "Attack" - he was sitting on the three flags from turn 1 - and that single crest ran the width of the map! From your comments it makes me think that I had little hope with the tanks I had... Next time a mix of some lighter expendible tanks might be better...

Small help, but it is possible to have all 4 of your MGs in command if you put you HQ outside and behind one of the houses. I also got a TV by moving up the left, using smoke then suppressing mortar fire to get a couple of platoons into the left most trenches and the woods. I advanced cautiously along the trenches concentrating fire manually and keeping my guys out of LOS of the enemy that they weren't concentrating on. Oh, and thoose 50mm mortars were invaluable for taking out the machine guns and the enmy mortar on the top of the hill, totally worth it to get one up near there with an HQ to spot.

Quick battles I'm still not sure how to guarantee a fun balanced game. I ran up a medium sized map, that ended up with LOS practically across half of it and all the way across the width. I had a platoon of IS-2s and some assualt guns, I was attacking against six PzIVHs... Well I did my best to try and shoot and scoot over the slight crest in the middle of the map simultaneously with all my forces. Total failure. They weren't quite closely coordinated enough and 2-4 tanks ended up firing on each of mine in turn. Closer coordination would have been hard cause I had no infantry to recon for me and figure out where the enemy was... My question here is what should I have done differently to get better results? Did I even stand a chance? Thanks!

Thomas, Yeah, exactly like that! Talk about service - these guys don't even wait for a feature release to give me features! =-O (Actually I've been playing this thing for six months and had totally forgotten that a portion was already coded.) What I'd love to see for #7 though would be an option to use the same effect on the hotkeys so I don't have to move my mouse down and target that button. Well anyhow it's clear to me I've spent more than enough time thinking about this game, calling myself an interface and what not, better get back to playing! :-D

What, you didn't know about the Maus easter egg?

Maddmatt, Gald you liked some! I only hope they'll be of some use - I sure know all too well how something that seems like a good idea can turn into to much work, or worse have a really nasty unforeseen side effect. Regarding #3 - I totally understand you. The extra 'leg work' the player must to to verify prexsiting LOS is part of the simulation and balance against the God's eye view of the battle. It's just like the Order of Battle issue isn't it? At first I was going to chime in on that one, thinking that is the information was avalible in the game why not summarize it for the player? After all it's not like there is a fog of war simulated between the player-as-commander and the micro-management of individual units. That's when I realized that the very absance of an Order of Battle served the role of simulating that particular effect. It keeps the player from having an unrealistically effecient level of control over his troop! Here's two more small ones for the grist mill: 7) Animated camera movements between the zoom levels. That is when you press one of the number keys to change camera level, instead of instantly snapping to the new view, quickly animating the camera movement so that the view flies smoothly up or down. (there's a subtle wrinkle in implementing this - you want to make the transition time constant regardless of the distance the camera has to travel or elese more drastic level changes take annoyingly long) Insanely cool in a gimmicky way? Yes (as anyone who has ever used pro-engineer will tell you). A time waster? Not really. In Pro-E users keep this feature on because the eye and the mind can maintain an aweareness of the model and their relation to it whenever the view changes. In other words, while the view change takes more time, there is no pause in the user's mind as he reorients himself to the new view. The same principle would apply here - the animated view change would eat up half a second, but you'd gain in back in not having to reorient yourself in regards to your troops and the terrain. And did I mention it would be insanely cool? 8) Just a nit really - have a Cancel button during each step of the battle setup process - I think you can Abort out if you go past the briefing stage (say to check out the force composition for one side in a scenario) but this just makes it obvious for newbies and provides a level of comfort in being able to reverse their actions and recover from accidental clicks that most users are used to in other programs. Hope some of this of use... I still feel vaugely guilty each time I think about how much I've gotten out of this game!

Hrm... I just read about this in Antony Beevor's Stalingrad so here's one source. Page 114 (Source given as the War Archives in Vienna) describes point units of the 24th Panzer Division advancing near Stalingrad in 1942 being missidentified as a concentration of enemy tanks by Stukas. In that instance friendly fire was averted but... Lets ponder for a momment how German tanks on the advance with their recognition flags were completely mistaken for Soviet tanks lying in wait. Now ponder how much harder it must be to differentiate the little ant like people...

Well I'm gratified people *do* care about the interface (Its my job in RL so its always nice to feel like one's marginally useful ). Here's a clarification to my two 'unpopular' ideas: 1) I agree more clutter is bad and often prefer using the hot keys. However I bet most people never use the camera control buttons (they just don't give you as much control as the direct manipulation of the view) which would easilly give enough space for a button or two. Also you could have two sets of hotkeys, one for cycling tree density and a different one of hiding / transparency / showing (keeping it just as unix-y as possible!) in addition to the buttons. I do love the idea of hiding the controls entirely too! In Photoshop for example all the tools can be hidden while working and then toggled on quickly by pressing TAB. One could imagine the unit display being a small two line bar at the bottom of the screen (maybe only appears when the unit is selected) and the rest of the controls could slide up (like the windows task bar) when the space bar or tab key is pressed) 3) I totally miss-comunicated here! I didn't mean "show what LOS would be like if/when the tank reaches the point at the end of a SHD order", but rather "when plotting SHD, let me know if I already have LOS to that point". The latter is interesting because if you CAN already see that point (although the graphical terrain might make you think its behind a hill) your tank will drive all the way to it. With prevous LOS the only time it won't treat that order like Move is if there's a gully in between. In summary the my propsal is exactly the same as slectinf the LOS tool, choosing a point, hitting the SHD tool without moving the mouse and clicking. No new functions, just saves prudent users a click and makes the SHD act more intelligeble to newbies. Thanks for paying attention to the obbessions of a UI grog!

Bummer, What tools are currently used to make the models if I may ask? I could imagine you guys releasing the exporter and then people lucky enuff to have that software could at least contribute (assuming the models were broken out as individual files). I'm sure there's issues with this as well, but I imagine having the process be exporter based (no importer) could at least keep the models that ship with the game from being 'stolen' (though what you'd do with a set of realtime tank models is beyond me!)

Were my suggestions really that blindingly obvious? Or did nobody care? Or do you all like the UI, just like it is thank you very much!? I know you're out there, I can hear you breathing...

<double post> [ March 10, 2003, 11:02 PM: Message edited by: Matias Duarte ]

For what its worth, very possibly already disscussed, and certainly the thoughts of one non-groggy newbie. Please read, respond, flame, and BTS if they're of any use consider as a small contribution to flat out the best value for entertainment I've ever come across in my entire life! (It'd still be totally worth it at twice the price actually.) 1) More visualization toggles avalible in the main botom panel interface rather than as hot keys. Given the increasing trend towards larger monitors I think its possible to add a section to the main controls which allows the user to more quickly toggle some of the display parameters which affect gameplay (as opposed to the visual/performance or preference parameters). For example I'm fine leaving tree density, weather, sound on/off, detailed armor hits, etc. as keyboard settings, but it would add a lot of convinience if I could have buttons to toggle trees at all, bases, firing lines, movement orders, arcs, etc. right on the screen instead of as hot keys. 2) An option to make vehicles and trees when toggles 'off' display transparent instead of fully gone. Again nice to have and possibly feasible now that video cards are better. 3) Display LOS status at the point at which a Seek Hull Down order point may be placed. In other words as you scan over the terrain with your SHD order, display the LOS indicator just as normal. This allows you to know that if the point is in LOS then the vehicle will only stop short of that final point if there is a depression in the ground. A minor thing since an experienced player will LOS first then use the key to swithc to SHD and click, but it saves a few actions and allows newbies to have a little more visibility into the working of that command. 4) Display a vehicle's actual path as orders are plotted. This would work by drawing a curve interpolated from the points laid down in the order - again, more CPU load but hopefully possible given the creeping rise in quality of a standard machine. This would in many ways eliminate some of the recent concerns people have been expressing over their units turning instead of shooting by letting them see before when they are asking their vehicles to make turns so tight that they have to scootch back and forth in place. It would also make visible to newbies the turn radii that the vehicles require with out having to open up the detail panel. 5) Display a turn vs scroll indicator on the screen and make it variable depending on the camera position. Basically I'm talking about how when your mouse hits the edge of the screen the view moves - the point on the side of the screen at which the behavior changes from 'side step' to rotate is invisible - having even a small HUD like hash mark would help with fine control. Additonally changing the position of that point based on the camera angle would have the benefit of biasing 'high views' - that is the top down map-like ones - to be more tracking based, and the 'low' - first person-like ones - would be more rotation biased. That's it. Let the carnage begin!

*SIGH* Anybody with a couple of tanks in the S.F. Bay area wanna get together one of these weekends? Any one? No takers at all? Just my luck. So what's the going rate for an MG-42 these days? (starting small)

New ideas? Doubtful... New dose of excitement anticipation and unreasonable expectation? You bet!

One tidbit that was posted on a thread regarding the artillery model stated that for the next game they would be starting by simulating all the capabilities of modern times and then scaling it down appropriately to the period and doctrine of the units involved... I doubt that this approach is limited to only the artillery model which brings visions of Korea Kuwait and evrything in between and on either side dancing through my head (in a way rather like sugerplums now that you mention it ). Of course I don't expect all these at once...

<double post> [ March 01, 2003, 01:26 AM: Message edited by: Matias Duarte ]

Wow, I actually have a small contribution to make to this fascinating thread - I think a guy I knew from high school worked on that MPAT round. I don't remember the details but it was the fuse for an explosive round fired from some kind of gun that would explode when near helicopters. It was supposed to detonate based on detecting the electromagnatic pattern made by the whole helicopter (not just the blades). I remember him showing some (very primitive) 3D computer models of a HIND vs other helicopters and saying that it could actually distinguish the type of helicopter (friendly or not) by the electromagnetic signature! Sounded pretty cool at the time. Course thinking back on that he probably shouldn't have been sharing... Funny world ... now a girl we know in my church's choir (my wife sings in it too) is working on software for thoose smart micro bombs - JSDM I think? (Never was good with acronymns)

Should you buy this game? Short Answer: Yes. . . . . . . . Oh, you wanted more?! I think its a great fun game and a good way to get a window into history. If you think you might like turn based strategy games and are aware that this is a game that will take you literally years to master (I got it months ago and am still a total noob) then I'd say its very likely the best spent money on game. You want fast furious and mindlessly satisfying? Put together a pure armor slugfest Panthers and T-34s. You want a well considered thoughtful battle of wits and wills? Find an opponent for PBEM. You want to learn historically accurate doctrine and tacticts? Download a scenario from the web. Feel creative? Make your own scenario. And that's from someone who likes power ups and hover tanks!

I'm thrilled, any thing with a Mac version deserves support! Er... What does this program do anyways? Just an ignnorant noob.

Um, this being the tips'n'tricks forum I really intended this thread to focus on how to use this command safely (and effectively). To help people understand how and when to use it if they had been previously scared away. When properly understood and carefully used the command is an important addition to the things you can do in the game. While there may be potential improvements in it (I wouldn't mind integrating an LOS check into it at least) it seems that's more a topic of a different thread. To go back to the higher (and more important question) of when and how (which I should have covered more carefully), I believe people already covered in detail the workings of the command. For the newbie tho' I'd like to stress the following points: This command can be used when you know the position of an enemy vehicle BUT that use is pretty risky since the enmy may well have moved by the time you get into position. It is primarilly a move command, so the commander will ignore shots of opportunity in his quest to get into position. If you know where the enemy is you're prolly better off using Hunt or Shoot and Scoot. If you've already been spotted by the enemy you could try and use this command to dash forward into a gully to achive hull down before shooting back, but in most cases this is a risky tactic as Redwolf points out because visual inspection can be missleading. Don't even try it unless you see a color change in the ground tiles cause any smaller gully will almost certainly not give you enuff cover. You very well be better off just standing still and shooting, or shooting and getting behind some complete cover as fast as you can! Just using SHD in a careful approach or in planning an ambush (safely as described in my first post) my be a limited subset of the hull down awareness which real tank commanders and drivers had in the war, but I've found its made my game playing a lot easier in thoose situations for which it was intended. P.S. Bonus question for tank grogs: Am I correct in assuming that reversing into a hull down position is eqivalent to battlefield suicide? I base this on the fact that you can't shoot while moving, losing the first shot advantage, and that if the enmy can penetrate you being hull down will really not help you much once spotted and not firing back...

Hi RA, Welcome to a game so addictive it should have agovernment warning label! In addition to being a blast its also a very accurate simulation of combat in WWII so a lot of your feeling of confusion and inexperience my be a natural offshoot of the fact that the war, the tactics and equipment used are a complex subject! I think you'll find this board quite friendly and able to answer any specific questions you have. What aspect is it you find confusing? The capabilities of your units? Your goals, how to tell if they have been achieved and how to achieve them? How to give orders, how to tell if you've done it properly and what orders to use when? Two other quick suggestions to get you started having fun w/o worring so much about the tactics and units: 1) Play one of the demo scenarios with a ig forec bonus on your side (selcet this when starting your battle). Yes this makes it easier to win, but think of this handicap as compensation for the fact that you have no clue about the interface or the tactics. 2) Try the Combat Mission Beyond Overload demo. While the graphics are much more primitive the game is basically the same (slightly easier and less accurate) but most importantly the scenarios in that demo are better suited to the newbie. The scenarios in CMBB are more oriented at show casing the improvements for CMBO vets! Good Luck!

Uh... I'm gonna go against the flow here and say that if you hate the demo, DON'T buy the game. Personally I love CM - even when it frustrates me beyond belief because its VERY realistic - but if you hate the demo, don't follow that up with $40 of frustration, remorse and and animosity towards the members of this board. Instead, try the demo again - the scenario where the Russians attack the woods, NOT Yevlina Stare (sp?) which is designed to make the German player cry (at least newbie German players like I was!). I'm advising this from memory, but I think the key to this one was Human Wave and support fire. First take your time in moving in your support weapons (a couple Maxims and Mortars right?) with Move to Contact into the little patch of woods in the middle of the map. Get them close to the edge with Move to Contact, and DO NOT start your Human Wave until thoose puppies are firing. Use Target to tell them roughly where to shoot and be sure that the target line you draw is in their Line of Sight. If it turns black and red, aim elsewhere or move the units. A succesful traget command will 'stick' and be displayed as long as you have the unit selected. Also one units are identified in the woods, give your support units new orders to target them directly. Hopefully this will help, although niether demo scenario really gives a good feel for the game. You might also try and download the CMBO demo - the gameplay in those two scenarios is more like what I really love in CM, but be warned the graphics are far less impressive. Another thing to try for a feel of if the game is fun to you w/o having to buy it and read the manual is setting the force bonus up for you. Play Yevlina Stare as the Russians or the demo scenario and give your side a 30% boost. It'll allow you to get the feel of the game play (and the satisfaction) w/o having to worry about learning both tactics and a new game interface at the same time! Good luck! Hopefully you'll love it and join us... Join us... joooiiiin uuussss...

As a newbie I was very confused by the Seek Hull Down (SHD) command - even though I had used hull down approaches in the CMBO demo w/o difficulty. By following a thread in the main CMBB forum I finally understood what had been causing my confusion and frustration - I had been issuing SHD to points at which I was already in LOS and past hull down to. Though some interesting software refinements for future products were proposed by myself and other forum members it didn't really help me today... HERE'S THE TIP: Never issue SD directly when trying to crest a rise. Unless you want to dash into a gully or depression in order to achieve hull down issue an LOS command first, then when you've checked that the target spot is indeedout not vissible (or already hull down) then simply hit the "D" key and click. You'll switch to the SHD command w/o any uncertainty about the spot yo're going too. Ever since I started using this SHD has worked predictably for me, completely avoiding any of the confusion and frustration I had when I started. If you've had trouble using the command before give this a shot! Apologies if this is old news!