Pak40

"Again, CC's maps are hand drawn in 2D. You can not have that same level of "detail" for a tile based game which is 3D" Again, I know exactly how the CC maps are made, afterall I'm making one myself. I never said that CM maps should have the same level of detail as CC maps but a little more character would help, so long as it didn't gobble the CPU. I have to admit that most of the screenshots I've seen look like you've taken a couple of buildings and several trees and plopped them down on a generic piece of land. However, the Ardennes and Hedgerow shots look a little more like the European country side. "In the end, CM is 100x more accurate than CC." Obviously the game mechanics, technical data, and AI will be a lot better than CC but I was refering to the maps in particular. I can assure you that at least some of the maps in CC2: ABTF are extreamly acurate. Crack open your copy of A Bridge Too Far and you will see the acuracy of the Arnhem and Nijmegen bridge maps. Combat Mission obviously has a strong advantage being a true 3D game. I can't wait to get your map editor and make a 3D version of Combat Mission: A Bridge Too Far.

Lokesa, Yea, Atomic did fudge or mess up a couple of maps in CC3 (I think it was fixed with the patch), but they've still done a smashing job, not only with the 2D artwork but with the historical Accuracy of the maps. There is NO game out there that has this level of accuralcy in any of their maps. Im hoping CM an PE will dethrone CC historical accuracy. BTW-- There is a WIZYWUG editor for Close Combat Maps, thanks to Kwazydog and others. It is now possible to create your own maps in CC2/3. A good commercial graphics editor shuch as Adobe Photoshop is still needed for the artwork, however.

Steve, Charles and others... Thanks for answering my questions. The reason why I asked them is because I didn't fully understand why graphics were toned down when compared to other games out there. I wasn't trying to bash your product, in fact just trying to help you to make a better product, if possible. I think the biggest point I was trying to make was about European city/town design. Much of it goes back to medieval times and I hate when some game developer (I wont name any names *SSI* cough!) develops a sim or wargame with a totally ficticios map. They dont even study the basic principles of European/medieval urban design. They just take Anytown USA and call it St. Lo. Im just trying to help you see the light from a urban planner's point of view.

Fionn, Did I ever say anything about satellite photos? I don't think so. I said AERIAL photos. There's a major difference, especially when the aerials come from air recon from the war. Also, I think the maps were from the time period of the war; not just some modern day road map. BTW, ever heard of GIS? Geographic Information Systems... It's what I do for a living. I make maps, usually from rectified Aerial Photos.

To everyone: my concern about the landscape's sterile look isn't just about eye candy. I'm very concerned about the effect on gameplay that a sterile environment will have. For Example: Imaginge a firefight in a village, both sides have infantry and some armor. In CM's current state, the only landscape elements in the village would be houses and an occasional tree. Now Imagine a more charasmatic landscape. One with shrubs and gardens surrounding the houses. The main street would have a line of trees down it, like a boulevard style street. The main center of town will have a church an maybe a fountain in a small center sqaure. The local shops or inn in the town would have crates in the back. Farms would have sheds and farming equipment strew about. All of these elements will have an effect on gameplay: LOS, cover, physical obstacles etc. In effect it would be a more realistic environment to play in. All I ask is that CM have the feel of European an North African landscapes and towns. It can only make the game better. I, as a graduate of Landscape Architecture, have had some classes on European urban design. The towns and landscapes in CM don't seem to reflect anything I've seen in pictures of Europe. Im sure if I would have visited Europe or lived there, I would be even more skeptical. The makers of the Close Combat series have done a smashing job at making maps based on historical accuracy. Some of those maps in ABTF look just like the pictures I've seen in the history books. The makers of Panzer Elite are making their maps from detailed aerial photos and topo maps. The screenshots look very believeable to me. Anyway, I'm probably too late with the point I'm trying to make; since the game is near beta. Maybe since CM is still pre-beta, we havn't seen any landscapes in a finalized form. Or maybe I'll just have to wait for CM II... Any comments, anyone?

Steve, "Over the years I have really come to understand that the German tanks, while certainly superior in many ways, are NOT the super tanks that wargames make them out to be. Playing Combat Mission will show you that like no other game. If you drive your Panthers and King Tigers around like they are the Queens and Kings of the battlefield, you will shortly find yourself in command of bailed out crews " I'm reading a book called "The shock of war" by J.C Doherty. It's an account of the northern shoulder of the bulge. I remember reading a section where German Infantry were approaching with assault guns. Artillery was called down upon the Germans. This drove off the infantry. The assault guns refused to move forward, in fact they backed up to safety. They knew that without infantry support, bazooka teams could easily sneak up on a buttoned vehicle. The Germans had a healthy respect for US AT weapons. Even the large assault guns kept their distance from AT guns.

Thomas & Doug "Pak40; those screenshots of Panzer Elite look ok. Perhaps a bit better than CM, " You're joking, right? Those screen shots make CM look like tinker toys. I think you're right about the inantry sprites in PE. That would require less processing power. I keep reading previews about how smart Panzer Elite's AI is. I have every reason to believe PE's AI will be as good as CM's AI. I too am for a smarter AI, Close Combat III was no challenge for me or any other Close Combat Vet - so believe me when I say that I want a smart AI. CM, I'm sure will have a bigger scope (more units per side) but the overall size of the maps looks about the same or maybe bigger in PE. Since the landscape counts for most of the polygons, i think that PE and CM will have a similar polygon count. I could be wrong, of coarse, I'm no programmer. Minimum specs for PE is a P166 with a modern 3d card. 233 without the 3D card. But PE, as a playable game, relies more on a smooth frame rate than CM. PE is a simulation in real time and if you have a choppy frame rate, then it will be impossible to play. CM, on the other hand, can still have a choppy frame rate and the outcome of the game will still be the same. The real time execution may look bad, but since players dont control units at this time, it wont effect the outcome. BTW, what are the minimum specs for CM?

Steve, Check out these screen shots of Panzer Elite when you get a chance: http://www.ga-source.com/news/mainbits/00+17+1999/12:24:25.shtml These are some really good examples of landscapes with lots of charachter and uh, "fluff". I Wish the CM screen shots could be like this. Doesn't CM and Panzer Elite have similar polygon counts? How come they can put the "fluff" in their game, but with CM the game will slow down?

"Powerful Editor + Ease of use + quick creation times + Internet = LOTS OF SCENARIOS to play." You are going to make a lot of SP and Close Combat players very happy with this! I'm drooling already.

I like these screenshots better than the other ones, graphics look a little better. I still have one concern: The landscapes look sterile. By that, I mean that there only seem to be trees, hedge rows, and buildings. The landscapes are missing elements that give it character and atmosphere: individual shrubs, signs, debris, & lamp posts. Some architecture seems uneuropean, Hedgerows are square and without trees, cows and other farm animals are missing. I know you have limits and can't throw in lots of items that bring the polygon count up to infinity, but some character in the landscape would help a lot.